Thread: Uli Behringer of The Music Group Q&A

"All I'm saying is I THINK that anyone who bought and paid for an X32 console from a UK online or offline retailer advertised around £1,800.00 will be in a contract with the retailer and the retailer has to deliver."

Andrew, exactly right - AFAIK it's the "and paid for" (or paid a deposit, for that matter) that is important and the answer to your final question is: Yes, I did, I paid a 10% deposit on £1799 and DV are honouring that contract.

Intentionally advertising a low price to draw people in when you fully intend to then charge them a higher price is a different kettle of fish, I think, and I suspect that is what the booklet you have is concerned with.

Originally Posted by Dave Korman

Yes, I did, I paid a 10% deposit on £1799 and DV are honouring that contract.

Darn it. I wish I'd ordered one now!


Kind regards, Andrew
Mama - The UKs 'all era' Genesis tribute band!
Carillon Video - Professional Wedding Videographer & Wedding Video Production Services in Bolton, Manchester & all over the UK

I decided it was all a bit uncertain re what to do about the price and pre-order and the delivery dates in the UK. I had pre-ordered one from studiospares for £1,799 ( no payment/no deposit - no email confirmation - as did it by phone - but verbal confirmation of price at the time) After the price rise I had thought of attempting to hold them to this when I was hoping to collect it by end of August and after "unknown" availability date went back to december condidered that for me to wait for the pre-order with this delivery date I would call to see if the price I pre-ordered at would be honoured -i.e. might make it worth waiting. However, my feeling is that because I had not already paid it would not be - and indeed re the studiospares hardcopy catalogue they have a disclaimer saying prices published are only valid for 30 days (i.e. may go up or down) - it is possible that this could be applied to an item that was pre-ordered against a price on the website for which they also had no control over the wholesale changes in price they would be charged when stock became available- but maybe they would have honoured the initial price provided they still made some profit - basically I should have asked at the time of the order.

I was making these considerations at the week-end (studiospares closed)and then decided (not over rational!)on Saturday with all the uncertainty of delivery to go and simply order the desk and case bundle from Thomann - with expected new stock in early September- for which they are taking orders -( I had considered doing this at the time of the initial pre-order but had at that time worked out it would be cheaper to buy the desk from studiospares and the case separately from Thomann - which is no longer the case (no pun intended!))

But who knows what may happen - Thomann may not get their expected stock - studiospares may get stock earlier than expected and may have honoured the pre-ordered price - and I may lose out.

I hope this thing will be worth all the effort - although they are shifting the blame I thing it was all a bit of a shambles by Behringer marketing - and when sending out info to retailers to advertise the thing they should have made it clear that the price at the time was not fully confirmed advising retailers to state this- as I feel it is their (Behringer's) reputation that has really taken the hit!

Actually having read Uli's reply re Behringers direct dealing to only Digital Village and Electrovision - I take some of that back as Behringer had little control what was advertised re an "advised" pricing for the unit. However, the changes in prices (I seem to remember DV went from about 1799 to about 1880 and then to current price - reason why I ordered from studio spares who were still at the 1,799 price for a long time!) - have reflected back on Behringer rightly or wrongly!

New ADA8200

Dear all,

in earlier posts some of you commented on the ADA8000 and suggested improvements. We are truly grateful for those suggestions and today we're excited to announce a vastly improved version of the ADA8000. It's the ULTRAGAIN DIGITAL ADA8200. I have also communicated with Bob Lentini from SAC and received his feedback for which I personally thank him.

Here are some of the improvements:

- The linear PSU has been replaced by a universal auto-range SMPSU. The heat issues are resolved
- A high-end Midas-designed preamp has been implemented on all 8 channels
- The detent VR's were replaced by non-detent types. They also feature much better linearity at high-gain settings
- High-quality Cirrus AD/DA converters have been designed in
- The TL072 op-amps were all replaced by NJM4580 for better audio performance

The unit should be in stores by end of year.




Again, thank you for all your valuable feedback.

Warm regards

Uli

Originally Posted by Uli Behringer

New ADA8200

Dear all,

in earlier posts some of you commented on the ADA8000 and suggested improvements. We are truly grateful for those suggestions and today we're excited to announce a vastly improved version of the ADA8000. It's the ULTRAGAIN DIGITAL ADA8200. I have also communicated with Bob Lentini from SAC and received his feedback for which I personally thank him.

Here are some of the improvements:

- The linear PSU has been replaced by a universal auto-range SMPSU. The heat issues are resolved
- A high-end Midas-designed preamp has been implemented on all 8 channels
- The detent VR's were replaced by non-detent types and also feature a much better linearity at high-gain settings
- High-quality Cirrus AD/DA converters have been designed in
- The TL072 op-amps were all replaced by NJM4580 for better audio performance

The unit should be in stores by end of year.




Again, thank you for all your valuable feedback.

Warm regards

Uli

WOW - stunning! Uli you did it again:-)
Will it be signifincantly more expensive than the ADA8000?
Christian

BTW: Maybe you could also join up with Rolf from Appsys ( www.appsys.ch ) for adding a sort of remote gain control? Or even set up something up on your own?
The SAC community would be very thankfull for this I bet. Anyway, that would be the icing on the cake.

Originally Posted by Andrew Prince

Darn it. I wish I'd ordered one now!


Kind regards, Andrew
Mama - The UKs 'all era' Genesis tribute band!
Carillon Video - Professional Wedding Videographer & Wedding Video Production Services in Bolton, Manchester & all over the UK

It's the reason I'm going to stay with DV and wait the extra few weeks, since we know they have some on the way to them now.

duplicate - please delete (web site seems flakey at the moment)

Originally Posted by Dave Korman

It's the reason I'm going to stay with DV and wait the extra few weeks, since we know they have some on the way to them now.

At that price, you could afford to also order one from Thomann and if it turns up first, I'll buy your DV247.com supplied X32 for £1,799.00. :-)

Originally Posted by Andrew Prince

At that price, you could afford to also order one from Thomann and if it turns up first, I'll buy your DV247.com supplied X32 for £1,799.00. :-)

Nice try! If I did that, I'd sell whichever one came second at the higher price! or on e-bay and maybe get a premium

Originally Posted by Dave Korman

Nice try! If I did that, I'd sell whichever one came second at the higher price! or on e-bay and maybe get a premium

Okay, final offer.... £1,899.00. You've got a guaranteed sale which makes you £100.00 profit. :-)

Hey, cool, thanks Uli! What a treat that you make this announcement here.

Bennett, please give the idle chit-chatters a good spanking and move some of that stuff over to the X32 topic

Originally Posted by Uli Behringer

New ADA8200

Dear all,

in earlier posts some of you commented on the ADA8000 and suggested improvements. We are truly grateful for those suggestions and today we're excited to announce a vastly improved version of the ADA8000. It's the ULTRAGAIN DIGITAL ADA8200. I have also communicated with Bob Lentini from SAC and received his feedback for which I personally thank him.

Here are some of the improvements:

- The linear PSU has been replaced by a universal auto-range SMPSU. The heat issues are resolved
- A high-end Midas-designed preamp has been implemented on all 8 channels
- The detent VR's were replaced by non-detent types. They also feature much better linearity at high-gain settings
- High-quality Cirrus AD/DA converters have been designed in
- The TL072 op-amps were all replaced by NJM4580 for better audio performance

The unit should be in stores by end of year.




Again, thank you for all your valuable feedback.

Warm regards

Uli

This is good news. I have another suggestion and that is to have the products which are of higher quality like the X32, S16, and Ultragain Digital ADA 8200 to be in a catagory on your web site named something like "Pro line" or "Professional line". What this does is for those who want higher end products of Behringer to be able to find all the product line quickly. Perhaps a higher end pair of headphones in their too?

Originally Posted by Uli Behringer

in earlier posts some of you commented on the ADA8000 and suggested improvements. We are truly grateful for those suggestions and today we're excited to announce a vastly improved version of the ADA8000. It's the ULTRAGAIN DIGITAL ADA8200. I have also communicated with Bob Lentini from SAC and received his feedback for which I personally thank him.

That's fantastic!

I will say, though, that what the SAC community is constantly struggling with is good ways to have a digital snake that goes right into the computer -- with remotable pre-amps. Most of us look at the S16 and keep trying to find a good way to make use of it for this.

Might I suggest a solution that you *almost* have: A SuperMac to ADAT converter that can convert two to three lines of SuperMac to ADAT input/output, and also control the pre-amps and phantom (bonus if its controllable by MIDI or ethernet so that software can be written to save the pre-amp and phantom settings). Then we could all use your S16 on stage as a digital snake head, but not have to convert to analog and back at the FOH point -- digital all the way through. By going to ADAT, you avoid having to create and maintain a computer interface and drivers -- you can leverage the ones that already exist from RME, MOTU, etc. and the product can be used without change as computer interfaces change technologies.

All the technology for this already exists in the S16... it's just the wrong form factor for the FOH end of the snake in that it forces us to convert to analog and back, rather than just being able to keep the signal digital. Ideally, I'd have two S16 on stage, and the above described box plus a ADA8200 at FOH.

Originally Posted by Uli Behringer

New ADA8200

Dear all,


Here are some of the improvements:
- The TL072 op-amps were all replaced by NJM4580 for better audio performance



Again, thank you for all your valuable feedback.

Warm regards

Uli

While this is perhaps TMI for this forum, since you mentioned the actual ICs used, the JFET input TL072 and bipolar input NJM4580 are not generally considered similar enough to be interchangeable.

Among the several notable differences the 4580 is a lot lower input noise but with slower slew rate. The slew rate is still fast enough to deliver a 60kHz+ power bandwidth so not an audio performance limitation.

The 4580 should deliver lower noise in circuit when properly applied. Since many manufacturers use the same palette of component parts, execution or how these parts are applied matters. I do not know what you pay for parts but my guess is that the NJM4580 should be lower cost than the TL072, so a win-win. If true that begs the question why was the TL072 used in the first place but better is always better (Kaizen).

JR

PS: I believe you could have a future writing bullet points for FAB copy. :-)

Mr. Behringer:

Since you are redesigning the ADA8000, please also address these issues:

1. The outputs are designed to drive pin 3 (inverting output) first, then invert it for pin 2. This output stage topology gives rise to problems in a couple of different scenarios. One of the most common is if you are converting the XLR output into a 1/4". If this 1/4" is mono, then pin 3 will most likely be tied to ground. When this cable is plugged into the ADA8000, the signal is shorted, and nothing is present on the Tip (pin 2). This is a fairly common configuration, especially for those hooking into consumer grade equipment with unbalanced RCA inputs.

Some possible solutions would be:
A. Drive the hot (pin 2) output only, and impedance balance the cold (pin 3) like you do with many of your mixers.
B. Add sufficient resistance (perhaps betweek 500 ohms and 1k) between the driver's outputs and the pins on the output connector. That way, if pin 3 is shorted to ground, there is enough resistance that the driver won't go into current limiting, and you will still have undistorted output on the hot pin 2.

2. The gain adjustment jumps very quickly as you approach the full clockwise position... This change is around 15dB for that last step! There also is a 10dB gain jump at the very start of the rotation. Also, the gain at the full clockwise position is a bit too much.

Some possible solutions would be:
A. Use a better pot that has better correlation with gain changes. I know this is difficult in a reverse (C) taper pot, but it can be done well.
B. Change the value of the series resistor to 47ohms, up from the 22ohms it is currently. I typically do this mod in my ADA8000s to help with the gain jump.

3. There seems to be a clocking issue when using ADA8000s with MOTU interfaces. Clicks and noise occur on ADA8000 inputs, that really aren't there. It gets worse when you use the BNC clock input signal. It can be very random, and can usually be solved by power-cycling the ADA8000, or even just disconnecting and reconnecting the optical input. Some units seems to have more of an issue with this than others. Other 8-channel preamps do not have this same issue with the MOTUs - only the Behringers.

Possible solution: there must be something in the muxing chip that is causing this. I've noticed that none of the other units I've tested use the Wavefront chip, so I'm guessing it has to be something with it.

Thank you for your time.

Bob Puff
New Life Electronics
Rochester, NY

Originally Posted by Uli Behringer

New ADA8200

Dear all,

in earlier posts some of you commented on the ADA8000 and suggested improvements. We are truly grateful for those suggestions and today we're excited to announce a vastly improved version of the ADA8000. It's the ULTRAGAIN DIGITAL ADA8200. I have also communicated with Bob Lentini from SAC and received his feedback for which I personally thank him.

Here are some of the improvements:

- The linear PSU has been replaced by a universal auto-range SMPSU. The heat issues are resolved
- A high-end Midas-designed preamp has been implemented on all 8 channels
- The detent VR's were replaced by non-detent types. They also feature much better linearity at high-gain settings
- High-quality Cirrus AD/DA converters have been designed in
- The TL072 op-amps were all replaced by NJM4580 for better audio performance

The unit should be in stores by end of year.




Again, thank you for all your valuable feedback.

Warm regards

Uli

Dear JR,

thank you for your comment.

In the ADA8000 the opamps are all designed around low-impedance circuitry and hence interchanging the TL072's with NJM4580's is not an issue.

The TL072 has an operating current of around 2.5mA while the 4580 draws approx. 3 times as much. Due to the vast amount of opamps used in the ADA8000, the TL072 was chosen to reduce the overall power consumption and the subsequent heat dissipation of the linear power supply.

The new ADA8200 uses a switch mode power supply which features a much higher efficiency and hence heat is no longer an issue. Due to this reason we implemented the 4580's for better overall audio performance.

Dear Bob,

thank you too for your comment.

Output stages.
I would have to check what circuitry has been applied for in the ADA8000. In general we use servo-balanced output stages which provide for a 6 dB gain adjustment if pin 2 or 3 are tied to ground. It is possible that the ADA8000 uses a simple inverter for the balanced output stage due to the fact that the unit does not have (shorting) TRS outputs.
However in contrast to the TL072, the 4580 which we're now using in the new ADA8200 can drive loads up to 50 mA which should resolve any issues you might have encountered.
All our designs feature current-limiting output resistors of around 100 Ohms.

Gain VR linearity.
This (common) problem has been resolved with a Midas-designed preamp which uses a stereo VR with laser-trimmed carbon tracks.

Clocking issue.
I am not familiar with any clocking problem but I am happy to feed this information back to our R&D department in Germany. Perhaps you could drop me an personal note here so we can better understand how to replicate this issue.

Thank you for your valuable input!

Originally Posted by Uli Behringer

Dear Bob,

thank you too for your comment.

Clocking issue.
I am not familiar with any clocking problem but I am happy to feed this back to our R&D department in Germany. Perhaps you could drop me an personal note here so we can better understand how to replicate this issue.

Thank you for your valuable input!

This is the issue that took out my 5 ADA8000s all but one worked at first, but over a period of months anywhere from one to all 8 channels would "Go noisy". This was usually heard as a hiss, Sometimes as a hiss that would modulate the spoken word delivered to the preamp. Sometimes as a clicking. As Bob says, the temporary cure was to cycle power, but once they started doing it, you knew it would happen again soon. All of my ADA 8000 were connected by ADAT to MOTU 2408 MKII.

I would have guessed some sort of comparability issue except that 4 of the 5 worked for a while before this problem turned up. From about 4 to 20 months as I recall. All are gone now so I can't provide any more input.

Replicating will be a issue because once they start they will do it again but you have no idea when.

Not bashing here, just trying to provide data.

Frank

Originally Posted by Jim King

The SAC community is constantly struggling with is good ways to have a digital snake that goes right into the computer -- with remotable pre-amps. Most of us look at the S16 and keep trying to find a good way to make use of it for this.

Hi Jim,
You do realize that the cost of a good road-worthy PC, good ASIO device(s) like RME, some sort of fader banks, racks of ADA preamps, plus your SAC license fee is probably equal to or greater than the cost of an X32 plus digital snake package, and the X32 solves 99% of the SAC limitations/common complaints such as remote controlled preamps, control surface, speed of navigation, user friendliness, ultra low latency, etc. It also will likely be more reliable than a PC based rig. SAC's big selling point has typically been the significant cost savings, but I think the X32 brings an end to that argument.