Yamaha DM1000 too much horsepower?

[Eric Swanberg]

Hi everyone-

I'm new here and very very junior varsity: still learning the ropes of how to run a mixer, but hopefully you will afford me some patience. Most of my experience with audio is from my work in church, and that's where my question today comes from.

We currently use a Yamaha DM1000 digital mixer for the band at church. Our church is very small (80 people) and we meet in the basement of a comedy club ATM where we send a mixed output to the house system. We are hoping to eventually get our own building where we can meet, which may be relevant in deciding which system to get. The general consensus at church is that the Yamaha is overkill for our needs. We usually have electric guitar, acoustic guitar, bass, kick, snare/hi-hat and 2 vocals, along with some bumper music from itunes.

Given that, should we downsize to something a bit more simple on the mixer end? If yes, are there any suggestions for a good (probably cheaper) mixer we could get? We may one day get more drum mics and add another guitar, so expandability is sort of a factor, but not huge.

If this is in the wrong forum, could someone please enlighten me? I hope I haven't violated any forum rules! Thanks for your help!

 

[Silas Pradetto]

Re: Yamaha DM1000 too much horsepower?

I routinely use a DM1000 for a bunch of things, I don't think it's overkill at all. Complicated, yes. Unless your church volunteers are VERY competent at using Yamaha digital consoles they are going to be totally lost.

For a church, I would probably avoid it just because it's too hard to use for the average volunteer sound guy.

Do you already own this or are you considering buying one? (Because I'm selling mine )

 

[Eric Swanberg]

Re: Yamaha DM1000 too much horsepower?

I routinely use a DM1000 for a bunch of things, I don't think it's overkill at all. Complicated, yes. Unless your church volunteers are VERY competent at using Yamaha digital consoles they are going to be totally lost.

For a church, I would probably avoid it just because it's too hard to use for the average volunteer sound guy.

Do you already own this or are you considering buying one? (Because I'm selling mine )

We already own it. I have not been at this church for very long, but I think the story is that it was acquired second-hand for fairly cheaply.

It seems a little bit complicated, but I was able to get the hang of it after a couple of weeks and some decent instruction, so it seems usable. I know we don't use any/many of the digital effects on it, so it's kind of like using a graphing calculator to add 3 numbers together.

Perhaps a better question would be this: if we sell it at whatever market price is and buy a suitable replacement, would we end up with an appreciable net savings or do you think it would be a push? We used IEMs in the past, but right now it's just two powered stage wedges due to the borrowed-space situation.

 

[Jef Bass]

Re: Yamaha DM1000 too much horsepower?

If you had an M7CL or LS9-32 or even our beloved X32 it might be overkill. The DM1K that you are using, if properly used, should be just fine for quite a while. With the "portable church" concept you guys must employ at this time, having a digital mixer like this one is right up your ally. The ability to recall setups- monitor mixes, etc. is of great benefit. Imagine doing this on an analog mixer and having to move/store it each week. Forget it. As long as you get the patching right on the stage/snaking systems, you should have no issue creating a meaningful service each week that is consistent. There are a lot of churches like this in the Atlanta area. I have built systems for just such churches time and time again. One thing that I always recommend, provided the operator has the aptitude, is a digital mixer. Recall saves time, and if memory serves, that mixer has decent FX on-board- cutting down the number of pieces that have to be connected- providing its something you use.

Sometimes guest engineers who want to see a different console installed because of personal taste make statements like "this is overkill" or "you really should buy console XYZ." Generally that comes from their inability to operate your installed desk properly.

If you are really gearing your mind up for making a change, I would personally hold off until the new stuff from Behringer is in stores. I am not cramming the X32 down your throat, but given the patching limitations of the DM1000 for future growth, and the fact that the X32 Compact comes with 16 XLRS, 6 line ins, and AES50 capability, when you are ready to add more channels just buy an S16 and a cat5 cable. This also lends itself well for monitoring as the P16 system is directly designed to work with it. Switching the band to their own personal mixers and wired IEM's will cut the stage volume to a minimum in most cases, permitting a better (less muddy) sound in the audience.

That's my 2 cents worth......

 

[Caleb Dueck]

Re: Yamaha DM1000 too much horsepower?

The issue really isn't having too much capability (just don't use it if not needed); like Silas said, it's about how fast and easy it is to interact with it.

If you want to sell it and replace - there's not much in that price range worth looking at. If you really want analog, the new Midas Venice U mixers look great. Digital, with eye on easy to use - higher price point. The X32 is OK (FOR THE PRICE - key point), but it's not the most intuitive to use. The X32 Compact is even worse - layers galore. It's worth the small price jump just to (partially) negate this with the full sized X32.

My 2c - keep the DM1000 for now, saving money until you can afford what has the capabilities you need now, the future capabilities you can grow into, and the user interface that makes sense. Most likely, it'll cost a good bit more than whatever you'll pick up from a used DM1000. A local church is getting a Midas Pro2 - it happens to fit their capabilities both now and near future, and the user interface fits their specific use well. We recommended a smaller/lower cost option, but the user interface and ease of use of how they mix, they requested to spend more on the Pro2.

Oh - congregational seating size has zero bearing on technical capabilities needed. We've seen extremes of tiny congregation sizes needing full Midas/Avid/etc level consoles, and 5,000 seat where 8ch is fine.

 

[Robert Piascik]

Re: Yamaha DM1000 too much horsepower?

Two advantages for stepping down to an analogue mixer: easier learning curve and in today's market you can get a TON of analogue mixer for very low dollars

 

[Dick Rees]

Re: Yamaha DM1000 too much horsepower?

If you had an M7CL or LS9-32 or even our beloved X32 it might be overkill. The DM1K that you are using, if properly used, should be just fine for quite a while. With the "portable church" concept you guys must employ at this time, having a digital mixer like this one is right up your ally. The ability to recall setups- monitor mixes, etc. is of great benefit. Imagine doing this on an analog mixer and having to move/store it each week. Forget it. As long as you get the patching right on the stage/snaking systems, you should have no issue creating a meaningful service each week that is consistent. There are a lot of churches like this in the Atlanta area. I have built systems for just such churches time and time again. One thing that I always recommend, provided the operator has the aptitude, is a digital mixer. Recall saves time, and if memory serves, that mixer has decent FX on-board- cutting down the number of pieces that have to be connected- providing its something you use.

Sometimes guest engineers who want to see a different console installed because of personal taste make statements like "this is overkill" or "you really should buy console XYZ." Generally that comes from their inability to operate your installed desk properly.

If you are really gearing your mind up for making a change, I would personally hold off until the new stuff from Behringer is in stores. I am not cramming the X32 down your throat, but given the patching limitations of the DM1000 for future growth, and the fact that the X32 Compact comes with 16 XLRS, 6 line ins, and AES50 capability, when you are ready to add more channels just buy an S16 and a cat5 cable. This also lends itself well for monitoring as the P16 system is directly designed to work with it. Switching the band to their own personal mixers and wired IEM's will cut the stage volume to a minimum in most cases, permitting a better (less muddy) sound in the audience.

That's my 2 cents worth......

I pretty much agree with this. The DM1K has a lot of capability which in future you'll likely grow into. You own it now. If you sell it and get an analog mixer suitable for your current needs, you'll take a big financial hit when you have to upgrade again. So......

Keep the DM1K. If you must have something simpler for the moment, just buy a used MixWizard for five or six hundred dollars and use it until you're ready for the DM1K again and everyone who needs to will be up to speed on it. The Wiz will be a good intermediate step for learning how to do sound and when you all see the need for the capabilities it has over the Wiz (which is a find board) the 1K will make more sense to you when you approach it from the angle of accomplishing specific tasks and applying specific techniques either learned from or lacking on the analog board.

You'll be money ahead if you keep it. If you start swapping mixers, you'll pay for the privilege as much as you'll pay for the swap-outs.

 

[Chad Young]

Re: Yamaha DM1000 too much horsepower?

While I respect the opinions of others given above, to my way of thinking, you could sell the DM1000 and afford a Presonus Studio Live 16.4.2 and a few good powered speakers. The SL is easy to learn and operate even for folks who learned the audio trade on analog consoles (like me).

 

[Shane Presley]

Re: Yamaha DM1000 too much horsepower?

Presonus Studio Live 16.4.2 and a few good powered speakers. The SL is easy to learn and operate even for folks who learned the audio trade on analog consoles (like me).

No offence but is this desk even a viable contender anymore. Its been discussed that this thing is a turd. Yeah i own x32s but i tried a studio live first and it went back in a box within 4 hours. As for ease of use, i was installing/ programming some led lighting in a church a couple weeks back. One of the sound operators was prepping for a rehearsal. Took him 20ish minutes to figure out how to get it going and it wasn't new to the install nor was he.
I was chuckling inside "now where the.... , it should be working".

 

[Dick Rees]

Re: Yamaha DM1000 too much horsepower?

No offence but is this desk even a viable contender anymore. Its been discussed that this thing is a turd. Yeah i own x32s but i tried a studio live first and it went back in a box within 4 hours. As for ease of use, i was installing/ programming some led lighting in a church a couple weeks back. One of the sound operators was prepping for a rehearsal. Took him 20ish minutes to figure out how to get it going and it wasn't new to the install nor was he.
I was chuckling inside "now where the.... , it should be working".

While I have a more positive experience with the SLive than you, I'd agree that in the realm of value for money, a straight analog board will be much better. The SLive is fine for what I need, but there are many, many other digital options that make much better use of the money.

My point is that you'll never be able to get enough for the DM1K to replace its functionality when you need it.......and you will. Think "bird in the hand".

 

[Eric Swanberg]

Re: Yamaha DM1000 too much horsepower?

My point is that you'll never be able to get enough for the DM1K to replace its functionality when you need it.......and you will. Think "bird in the hand".

That's a fair point, though I'm not sure if I will really have the final say anyway. Apparently we have a Mackie 1604 tucked away somewhere right now, so my guess is that would be the replacement.

It might all come down to price. How much do these DM1000 guys fetch these days? It's been listed on craigslist for $4000 OBO for about a week with nary a nibble.

 

[Dick Rees]

Re: Yamaha DM1000 too much horsepower?

That's a fair point, though I'm not sure if I will really have the final say anyway. Apparently we have a Mackie 1604 tucked away somewhere right now, so my guess is that would be the replacement.

It might all come down to price. How much do these DM1000 guys fetch these days? It's been listed on craigslist for $4000 OBO for about a week with nary a nibble.

Depending on the "goes-with-its", somewhere around $3K. But to replace the features it has, you'll have to spend a lot more to replace it with a comparable desk. The popular thing to recommend now for function for the money (band for the buck) is the X32, but I'm not sure that I'd point that direction yet. Give it a couple of years and then look at the track record.

If you want to see what they're going for, look in the "Completed Auctions" on E-bay.

 

[Caleb Dueck]

Re: Yamaha DM1000 too much horsepower?

DM1000's aren't exactly the 'in' thing now. For small/cheap applications, the X32 has pretty much taken over that market segment. I'd guess closer to $1k used for a DM1k.

I just heard about a local company dumping their inventory of StudioLives, the failure rate was crazy high. They just fell apart on the road. In that ultra-cheap category, the X32 is quickly taking over.

 

[Dick Rees]

Re: Yamaha DM1000 too much horsepower?

I just heard about a local company dumping their inventory of StudioLives, the failure rate was crazy high. They just fell apart on the road. In that ultra-cheap category, the X32 is quickly taking over.

You heard it, then you said it. I think that's the definition of "hearsay".........

Edit:

I personally know two companies (know, not "heard about") who are happy with their SLives, both using them themselves and renting them out. So that's two "for-sures" to your one "heard about".

 

[Eric Swanberg]

Re: Yamaha DM1000 too much horsepower?

Thanks to everyone for all of the great advice! I'll have to confer with some of the others who are involved to figure out our path forward, but I really appreciate all of you weighing in.

 

[kristianjohnsen]

Re: Yamaha DM1000 too much horsepower?

I routinely use a DM1000 for a bunch of things, I don't think it's overkill at all. Complicated, yes. Unless your church volunteers are VERY competent at using Yamaha digital consoles they are going to be totally lost.

For a church, I would probably avoid it just because it's too hard to use for the average volunteer sound guy.

Do you already own this or are you considering buying one? (Because I'm selling mine )

Hello. Major Yamaha fan here. But....


Yamaha, why, oh why, could you not give the DM 1000 exactly half the card slots as it's big brother, along with the same amount of auxs as well as those little displays above each fader? Oh why, you have followed this school of thought with the big/small version of your other "old" digitals.

It would have made the DM 1000 a true 19 inch-mount killer console!

 

[Tim McCulloch]

Re: Yamaha DM1000 too much horsepower?

Too much power is just right - Carrol Shelby

 

[Caleb Dueck]

Re: Yamaha DM1000 too much horsepower?

You heard it, then you said it. I think that's the definition of "hearsay".........

Edit:

I personally know two companies (know, not "heard about") who are happy with their SLives, both using them themselves and renting them out. So that's two "for-sures" to your one "heard about".

Heard about is because I talked to someone who mixes regularly on their gear, not a direct employee. The main reason though - I forgot the name of the exact company.

It's all about sample size. We've heard too many cases of the SL not being robust, the sound quality is lacking, the interface is poor (hands-on testing). While a few instances could potentially be written off as hearsay, when taken as a whole - I think it's called overwhelming circumstantial evidence. After having both SL and X32, and listening to what we can second-hand about reliability (larger sample size) - we decided to not risk the SL.

In any case - nothing in the digital sub-$10k-ish range has digital snake, reliability, low cost, and ease of use. Selling a DM1k for something similar cost would be a lateral move at best.

 

[Dick Rees]

Re: Yamaha DM1000 too much horsepower?

Caleb....

I know you don't care for the Presonus boards from dissing them in just about every post you make that is even near enough to dump a gratuitous slur on them. That's fine. You're entitled to an opinion. But asserting that "overwhelming circumstantial evidence" says they're c*** is fatuous blather. We all know that the bulk of posts about gear comes from those who have experienced less than expected performance. That says nothing about the majority of folks who may be well satisfied with a particular product.

I have no vested interest in promoting Presonus. Neither do I have a desire to diss them. I'm just tired of hearing you slam something you don't use and have only "heard about". I suspect that a portion of your dislike for them is the low profit margin in selling them.

 

[Mike Brown]

Re: Yamaha DM1000 too much horsepower?

Caleb....

I know you don't care for the Presonus boards from dissing them in just about every post you make that is even near enough to dump a gratuitous slur on them. That's fine. You're entitled to an opinion. But asserting that "overwhelming circumstantial evidence" says they're c*** is fatuous blather. We all know that the bulk of posts about gear comes from those who have experienced less than expected performance. That says nothing about the majority of folks who may be well satisfied with a particular product.

I have no vested interest in promoting Presonus. Neither do I have a desire to diss them. I'm just tired of hearing you slam something you don't use and have only "heard about". I suspect that a portion of your dislike for them is the low profit margin in selling them.

I can also think of several companies here in minneapolis (which do BIG productions) who own and love their studiolives for smaller gigs. No one I have talked to is thinking of dumping them.... not to mention all the venues in town which use it everyday in pretty tough circumstances as their only console.

One guy I mix for just ordered 6 more of the 16.4.2's. That's a pretty big commitment for the future of his small rentals.

I certainly don't disagree that "for the money" the X32 has more features.... but I don't see anyone selling their stock of studiolives just to replace them with x32's.