Making the next step in the PA biz... Let's hear your thoughts

Re: Making the next step in the PA biz... Let's hear your thoughts

Matt Vivlamore said:
Sound wise… well here is what you get when everything is being driven off on 1 amp. With the mix position sitting around 75’-100’ away and I started the set running the PA at 100-105 db with a Hard Rock band, the “system tech” came up to me and began to yell at me that the PA was too loud and I was taking people’s heads off with volume. So I got out from behind the board and walked up into the crowd, sure enough it was loud and my eye balls wanted to pop out of my head and I backed the mix down to 65-70 db at FOH to in order to get a desirable volume for the crowd 30’ away from the stage.

I don’t know what presets the put in, but I presume that the KF760 and KF761 are different. I would almost say they were running the KF760 presets for the array, the PA sounded ‘right’ at FOH.
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In a properly designed array with enough boxes, you don't need much gain shading (or any) to get even sound front to back. However, it does not sound like anything was 'proper' at that show.
 
Re: Making the next step in the PA biz... Let's hear your thoughts

Matt Vivlamore said:
Rob, it was only 1 rack with 4 amps (16 channels of power) for the entire rig. I am not sure if it was exactly like this but I remember them telling me that the top amp went to SL top boxes, the 2nd amp went to SL tops, the 3rd amp went to SL stack of 6 SB1000 and the 4th amp to the SR stack of SB1000s. A single amp powering the flown array, doesn't work so well when its format is a J.

I am not very familiar with the KF760s, but there were at least 2 am channels had a .8 ohm load on the amp. I do know the subs and if they split the drives into 2 channels the load would have been 1.3ohm load on the amp. The PLM10000Q produces 2350w at 2 ohms across the 4 channels (2400w at 4 ohms).
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Agreed that the rack in question was inappropriate for the KF760 rig, but it would have been appropriate (if not ideal) for the KF730s noted in the inital post.
 
I was in the 730 camp as well. I have ZERO experience with 760's and will gracefully bow out of this one.

As for the OP...
I am making money on powered boxes like K12's and renting or hiring out the big stuff. There is a lot of PA in my area and I can't see competing (and winning) with the guy who rents 730's and kf650's for $25/ea.
I get the same for a K12 and they cost nothing and get a great ROI.

That's me and my market, but we are alive and well...
 
first off that array needed 12 channels of amps per side. The of kf760 and 761 have different processing needs to work together. If you run the 761 off the same drive as the 760, the mids will rip your head off and the highs will be nonexistent. Secondly the technical papers on them state that they are to be used at a single drive leave throughout the array due to the issues caused by divergent drive levels. Thirdly, that array sounds like it needed significantly more trim height.

Personally I wouldn't even consider using our full 760 array without a minimum of 30 foot of trim height.

Sent from my neural implant
 
Re: Making the next step in the PA biz... Let's hear your thoughts

I'm an in betweener at the moment. I spend about half my time running other people stuff and the other half running my own stuff. I make way more money running my own stuff of course, but there is a lot of investment put into it too. The real money is actually in the shallow end of the pool. The little guys running SOS systems can book three or four gigs a week and a hopefully more than occasional BIG gig are really the ones having more fun. They are home most of the time, have a small inventory to contend with and can afford to replace the stuff that broke but paid for itself 20X's. I have several different rigs for different things. I have the really small rig, the intermediate and my big rig. All my rigs are small in comparison to the larger houses, but each one does nothing but make money!

Stepping up to the next level I have found is not what I consider fun. You have a huge initial investment that you have to put to work. Your also still going to be dealing with Tech riders that will always have stuff you will have to cross rent. Most of the time these gigs will be for less than what you would really like to be making. On top of that, you will need a place to store, repair and prep all that stuff. The profit margin gets smaller and smaller the bigger you get. Don't forget about insurances, logistics and labor.......

I don't think renting out the equipment is the answer either. Now your paying for someone else's gear and still making a short profit margin. The liability is still in your hands and you will need the insurances to securely run that type of show. And when things go wrong and you have to kick back money to a client, it's coming out of your pocket. I tried doing this for a while and though I was lucky, I didn't see long term viability in it.

You will have to sit back and really see what your heart wants. If your worried about the ROI and profitability, then going bigger may not be the way to go. If you don't want to be the little guy doing the little shows, you will have to either own, or rent the equipment you don't own. I don't particularly care to tech other people stuff, but that is a money making venture that requires very little investment. I have found a happy medium picking the shows I want to do with my equipment and teching other houses stuff. I'm not making a killing, but I'm never broke either. Guess you really have to know what you want first?
 
Re: Making the next step in the PA biz... Let's hear your thoughts

Mark Lonow said:
yawn.... 135 pound 10year old trap boxes?dys sub?
gess thats business ....gear for others to abuse,get rained on...fallout of the truck
i dont recomend 650s on a mobile rig sls960 r in the same boat(anker)

(and a bunch of other bad advice...I added that, not him)
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Look, I'm medicated, been through rehab and detox (three times in a year) and I'm not nearly as big as a prick as I used to be. But in your case I'll make an exception. Are you fucking kidding me?... Your advice is so not right it's not even wrong.

The biz is about making money. Not about penis factor. It doesn't matter if you're using 50 year old Voice of the Theaters (ask your great grand parents or Brinkman or Fowler about what those are...) or a Mica or whatever John and Helen's grandkids are named. If you can't make the money work, no one is going to give a shit when the bankruptcy auction happens.

It's hard for me to take you seriously with the manner in which you communicate with the written word. Not that your "advice" was problematic enough but if you want any pros to take you seriously, try to at least use grade school communication skills. Ah damn it, I sound like some jaded old fart. Well, but I am.

Hartford, you're doing the right thing. You, and you alone know what is best for your business. Never lose sight of the fact that you are being called because of the results you deliver. Not so much the brands you provide. If you can use less expensive gear, spend the money on your people. Training them, hiring the right people and keeping them happy. Evan, at this point you know what the hell you are doing. Now go out and do it. I'd hire you.

Dave
 
Re: Making the next step in the PA biz... Let's hear your thoughts

The man himself! Nice to see you around the parts again Dave!

For those of you still playing along at home, here's what's developed since this thread has started:

I have decided that a big LA rig is out of the question. I can easily rent in a LA for those few shows a year when I actually need it. It just makes more sense rather than trying to buy(at least for now). The plan(which is already in motion) is to double my current trap rig, make it flyable and buy a nice set of digital consoles. The idea is that I can split it into 2 mid sized trap rigs for "smaller" shows(500-1,000) and then combine it all into 1 big rig on bigger shows(up to 2,500 I'd say).

Things are looking good- I've got a sweet weekly summer gig locked in at a mid sized amphitheater, and quite a few festivals in the works. This rig should see a steady flow of work this summer and be paid for by the fall!


Thanks for all the help guys- the future is bright!



Evan
 
Re: Making the next step in the PA biz... Let's hear your thoughts

Dave Stevens said:
.

The biz is about making money. Not about penis factor. It doesn't matter if you're using 50 year old Voice of the Theaters (ask your great grand parents or Brinkman or Fowler about what those are...) or a Mica or whatever John and Helen's grandkids are named. If you can't make the money work, no one is going to give a shit when the bankruptcy auction happens.
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A little while ago I was talking to one of my "mentors" back when I was getting started (30 some yrs ago.)

He is STILL running the same PA cabinets he did then-and some of the same amps. New consoles and processing however.

He told me "This stuff was paid for DECADES ago and I don't have to move it. I have kids that want to get into the "biz" and they are happy to carry it-stack etc-just to be a part of "rock -n-roll".

He is one of the few rental guys who is actually making money with his gear NOT paying for loans/leases etc.

He and his clients don't care what the gear is-just that it gets the job done.

And yes a lot of it is Altec VOTT-JBL 4560's-large HEAVY horns and so forth.
 
Re: Making the next step in the PA biz... Let's hear your thoughts

The only thing i would add is that "when" everything is paid for try to stay away from the itch of buying more. Give yourself some break time to re-evaluate where you are and if your "business plans" change then and only then look into purchasing more equipment if justified.. Love the music, keep having fun and make money while doing it..
 
Re: Making the next step in the PA biz... Let's hear your thoughts

Fast forward a year, and I figured it was time for an update.

2013 turned out to be my most profitable/successful year to date! ...To the point that it has become my full time gig. I threw in the towel with my touring gig in October and decided to focus on the local biz. 7 years on the road, and being home ~60 days a year was starting to get the best of me. With business booming, my income from touring had surpassed what I was making on the road. It was the most logical thing(to me) that I could do. I had hit a wall. The business was doing so well that my local staff couldn't handle the gigs alone. I couldn't keep up with purchases, maintenance, and advancing while being on the road. I could hardly keep the days straight, and things were falling through the cracks. I had to make a decision, and my gut told me to chase this new opportunity. So, here I am.

So, I'm sure you're all asking yourselves- did I stick to my "plan?" And, Surprisingly, yes! I'm ending this year with 24 of my single 18 subs, 8 Community SLS960's, 4 Community SLS920's, a big pile of JBL PRX612m's(money makers!), and matching mid-format digital consoles. The biggest thing I learned this year was- consistency. I eliminated all of the random piles of stuff I had, and consolidated everything into matching gear. Stuff that can scale up and done, can be split up to run multiple stages, and most importantly, will make me money. It's going to make a killer outdoor festival rig with 4 960's flown per side, 12 subs per side, and the 920's for front fills. 2014 is already looking busy as can be, and who knows, maybe I'll get to buy that fancy line array system in 2015. :)





Evan
 
Re: Making the next step in the PA biz... Let's hear your thoughts

Good for you Evan, stick with what makes you money, and happy at the same time. Who would of "thunk" from the guy who built a snake reel from a garden hose reel (which I thought was ingenious) to touring with ATL. I have been following you and Tom since your first post, you guys make a great team when you pair up by the way, I wish you luck with your future, I met you at the Norva a while back, we had a great chat. Good luck.
 
Re: Making the next step in the PA biz... Let's hear your thoughts

Evan Kirkendall said:
Fast forward a year, and I figured it was time for an update.

2013 turned out to be my most profitable/successful year to date! ...To the point that it has become my full time gig. I threw in the towel with my touring gig in October and decided to focus on the local biz. 7 years on the road, and being home ~60 days a year was starting to get the best of me. With business booming, my income from touring had surpassed what I was making on the road. It was the most logical thing(to me) that I could do. I had hit a wall. The business was doing so well that my local staff couldn't handle the gigs alone. I couldn't keep up with purchases, maintenance, and advancing while being on the road. I could hardly keep the days straight, and things were falling through the cracks. I had to make a decision, and my gut told me to chase this new opportunity. So, here I am.

So, I'm sure you're all asking yourselves- did I stick to my "plan?" And, Surprisingly, yes! I'm ending this year with 24 of my single 18 subs, 8 Community SLS960's, 4 Community SLS920's, a big pile of JBL PRX612m's(money makers!), and matching mid-format digital consoles. The biggest thing I learned this year was- consistency. I eliminated all of the random piles of stuff I had, and consolidated everything into matching gear. Stuff that can scale up and done, can be split up to run multiple stages, and most importantly, will make me money. It's going to make a killer outdoor festival rig with 4 960's flown per side, 12 subs per side, and the 920's for front fills. 2014 is already looking busy as can be, and who knows, maybe I'll get to buy that fancy line array system in 2015. :)





Evan
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Well you have figured out what I never did in some 25yrs of doing the "rental thing".

That is how to MAKE MONEY. I kept putting my earning back into getting more "toys" and hoping for a larger market. You know "the glory". I kept getting things that were fun for me-not the boring htings that I could rent out and have them pay for themselves and provide income-who wants to do that-it's boring!!!!!!!! Yeah but it pays the bills-dummy :(

I was a lousy business person (that is why I stay away from money issues with my current job).

My the new year be good for you.
 
Re: Making the next step in the PA biz... Let's hear your thoughts

Brent may I suggest that not having people on your rider could be an error, the right people with the wrong gear will always be miles better than the wrong people with the right gear.
Evan has been very clever by not bursting the bank on kit but making sure he can make the most of what he has got with the skills he's picked up over the last few years touring and working with top tier people and kit. SLS960s etc are perhaps not the state of the art rig but I'll lay odds with a good system tech like Evan seems to be they'll leave most of the poorly deployed/ too small 'cause I can't afford any more' "line arrays" in the dust. Well done Evan hope 2014 goes as planned. G
 
Re: Making the next step in the PA biz... Let's hear your thoughts

Yeah, I'm curious about this "making money" thing as well. Evan would you be willing to fill us in on who (in terms of client types) in your area is willing to pay a living wage for sound?

Merry Christmas everyone!
 
Re: Making the next step in the PA biz... Let's hear your thoughts

drew gandy said:
Yeah, I'm curious about this "making money" thing as well. Evan would you be willing to fill us in on who (in terms of client types) in your area is willing to pay a living wage for sound?

Merry Christmas everyone!
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Living wage? It's on the Santa list!
 
Re: Making the next step in the PA biz... Let's hear your thoughts

gordon mcgregor said:
Brent may I suggest that not having people on your rider could be an error, the right people with the wrong gear will always be miles better than the wrong people with the right gear.
Evan has been very clever by not bursting the bank on kit but making sure he can make the most of what he has got with the skills he's picked up over the last few years touring and working with top tier people and kit. SLS960s etc are perhaps not the state of the art rig but I'll lay odds with a good system tech like Evan seems to be they'll leave most of the poorly deployed/ too small 'cause I can't afford any more' "line arrays" in the dust. Well done Evan hope 2014 goes as planned. G
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Look, if I am managing the tech for the tour and mixing the show, I am going to advance the gig and verify the promoter has provided what we specified, or we don't do the show. I call and verify the provider's reputation. This is a small industry and it is easy to make or break your reputation. Plain and simple.

I was never a gear snob per se. All I wanted to do was get off of the plane/bus, do my thing, and not have problems/failures. If the venue can get by with old 850s, fine. Just make sure they work and aren't loaded with Peavey drivers (yes, that happened to me). If I need a line array, I will go through my list of preferences. The important thing is the performance and everything required to make that performance good for all parties involved.

Sure, the right people are important. Nobody is disputing that. But promoters want the cheapest provider, not the best sounding or staffed. I have never seen a tech rider with names of people on it.
 
Re: Making the next step in the PA biz... Let's hear your thoughts

drew gandy said:
Did they sound bad or were they just the wrong drivers?
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Because they were the wrong drivers, they sounded bad. REALLY bad.

I was told by the system tech that they bought the EAWs unloaded at an auction. The company was owned by a music store. The owner did not want to put the TADs and RCFs in there, so loaded them with Peavey. It was terrible. Oh yeah, they used Peavey x-overs too. There was no time alignment, etc, etc.
 
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