Board decision for mid-sized church

Re: Board decision for mid-sized church

TJ Cornish said:
Message to all Soundforums.net responders: If someone bothers to write in their question "NO Behringer" - I don't care how much you like your X32 - it's not applicable.
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If they write "no xyz" I think it is also wise to tell why 'xyz' isn't an option.

In some other forum the poster said that the x32 was not an option. It was then discovered that the poster was totaly mis-informed about its capabilities and functionaliy by some dealer/friend/forum.
 
Re: Board decision for mid-sized church

Jared Koopman said:
If you are referring to my post I did say that I wasn't suggesting he go that route. I was merely pointing out that given the criteria listed, it does meet all of the criteria except personal preference. I really don't care what they end up purchasing. Thats all I was saying. :)

As you mentioned in the first post, the GLD would be my first choice in this budget category. The others are pretty lackluster imo.
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I was referring specifically to Declan Slater's post, and generally to the several folks who've answered the question on a number of threads: "What, other than the X32, should I get?" with "How about the X32?"
 
Dick Rees said:
Sort of reminds me of a frequent poster from our town who tends to (rabidly) favor big-ticket gear because he can make more selling it.
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Whew, thought this was me for a bit. I actually make less installing large items than small, so can safely put financial motivation aside as to clouding recommendations. X32 and Roland would make me the most money, guess how many I have spec'ed in the last few years? Or Yamaha CL (fixed price) for that matter?

If you're hinting at me, most cheap consoles are cheap for a reason - it's based on lack of capability and longevity, not profit margin. Most cheap options have the highest margin.
 
Re: Board decision for mid-sized church

Robert Lofgren said:
If they write "no xyz" I think it is also wise to tell why 'xyz' isn't an option.

In some other forum the poster said that the x32 was not an option. It was then discovered that the poster was totaly mis-informed about its capabilities and functionaliy by some dealer/friend/forum.
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The no Behringer and no Presonus clause wasn't an attack on anyones brand of choice. I'm a happy Presonus user myself and have owned 3 Behringer boards. With all of the Behringer love that's being spread I wanted to avoid this thread turning into another X32 thread.

If only Dick Rees weren't so far away he could put together a quote for a X32/Big E complete install system :)
 
Re: Board decision for mid-sized church

Jeff Williams said:
The no Behringer and no Presonus clause wasn't an attack on anyones brand of choice. I'm a happy Presonus user myself and have owned 3 Behringer boards. With all of the Behringer love that's being spread I wanted to avoid this thread turning into another X32 thread.

If only Dick Rees weren't so far away he could put together a quote for a X32/Big E complete install system :)
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There is a Banjo Depot in Tulsa and Leland is in Parsons, KS... comfortably close enough to build a BigE system for you. :)) nudge, wink
 
Re: Board decision for mid-sized church

I'm in this business to help my customers avoid wasting their money on systems that are too big, too small, and too complex for their operators. I still have to feed my family and pay the mortgage, but - as a small outfit - I run things pretty tight, and don't make a huge margin like you guys are saying. I sell the GLD too, I just don't like the $100 ILive app. I find the GLD/Ilive to lack a good personal monitor mixer. the Roland has the best one out there, next best is the MyMix in my opinion, Aviom just sounds bad, that's directly according to my clients (who play professionally all over town). yeah the M200i does not have scribble strips, and has 32 inputs - but the M200i-EXP (MAP@$5K), it's HALF the cost of the GLD w/snake heads (MAP@$12,300). I can sell that GLD system under $10K, but just barely... I find that my Church clients really want personal monitor mixers that sound great, are easy to use/recall, and must have "independent adjustable input channel EQ".
 
Re: Board decision for mid-sized church

Declan Slater said:
I find the GLD/Ilive to lack a good personal monitor mixer.
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Have you bothered yet to look at Allen & Heath's ME-1? Comparing its features to the competition, it's hard to beat, and it's integration with the GLD-80 is very well thought out. A church client of mine tried it out for the first time this past Sunday, and absolutely loved it! When the ME-U hub comes out, it will have Dante, ACE, Ethersound & MADI connectivity.
 
Re: Board decision for mid-sized church

Jeff Williams said:
If only Dick Rees weren't so far away he could put together a quote for a X32/Big E complete install system :)
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I'll have to disabuse you of the notion that I recommend any sound equipment at all for "worship".

Keep the bands in the bars.

Go to Quaker meeting.

See if you're strong enough to live in silence........
 
Re: Board decision for mid-sized church

Declan Slater said:
I'm in this business to help my customers avoid wasting their money on systems that are too big, too small, and too complex for their operators. I still have to feed my family and pay the mortgage, but - as a small outfit - I run things pretty tight, and don't make a huge margin like you guys are saying. I sell the GLD too, I just don't like the $100 ILive app. I find the GLD/Ilive to lack a good personal monitor mixer. the Roland has the best one out there, next best is the MyMix in my opinion, Aviom just sounds bad, that's directly according to my clients (who play professionally all over town). yeah the M200i does not have scribble strips, and has 32 inputs - but the M200i-EXP (MAP@$5K), it's HALF the cost of the GLD w/snake heads (MAP@$12,300). I can sell that GLD system under $10K, but just barely... I find that my Church clients really want personal monitor mixers that sound great, are easy to use/recall, and must have "independent adjustable input channel EQ".
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Once again, the GLD app is free. I'm not sure why the fact that the ILive app is $100 is stuck in your head - it has nothing to do with the GLD.

The ME-1 personal mixer is significantly better than Aviom, and the M200i is less than half the mixer of the GLD, hence the price difference.

As to your church clients that "must have independent adjustable input EQ" on their personal monitors - really? I'd suspect people get in trouble with that more than it's helpful. On the whole, it seems the M-48 module is dumber than the ME-1.

I know there are some folks that say they need more than they really need, but if I go to a car dealership and ask for a pickup truck to haul my 4-wheeler and the salesman tries talking me into a Ford Focus, I'm going to be pissed off. Once in a while, at least, we need to actually listen to the OP's requirements, rather than suggesting something inadequate. If you really suspect the OP doesn't know what they're talking about and want to suggest something less, at least tell them in what ways your suggestion doesn't meet their listed requirements so they know what they're getting if they take your advice.
 
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Re: Board decision for mid-sized church

Hey TJ,

I'm glad to see you enjoy taking the time to point out the free GLD app again, when I was talking about the $100 ILive app.. I'm sorry that my post had been confusing.

Seems also odd to me to spend 2x more for 8 more channels, but yes.. You are correct, that mixer would clearly not qualify.

As to the M-48, "dumber" than the ME-1, - Really, that's the best you can do? You're not hiding your bias very well with comments about independent channel EQ being troublesome.

I never ment to ruffle your feathers here... Just thought it nice to toss in another, much cheaper idea.. No biggie... ;)

TJ Cornish said:
Once again, the GLD app is free. I'm not sure why the fact that the ILive app is $100 is stuck in your head - it has nothing to do with the GLD.

The ME-1 personal mixer is significantly better than Aviom, and the M200i is less than half the mixer of the GLD, hence the price difference.

As to your church clients that "must have independent adjustable input EQ" on their personal monitors - really? I'd suspect people get in trouble with that more than it's helpful. On the whole, it seems the M-48 module is dumber than the ME-1.

I know there are some folks that say they need more than they really need, but if I go to a car dealership and ask for a pickup truck to haul my 4-wheeler and the salesman tries talking me into a Ford Focus, I'm going to be pissed off. Once in a while, at least, we need to actually listen to the OP's requirements, rather than suggesting something inadequate. If you really suspect the OP doesn't know what they're talking about and want to suggest something less, at least tell them in what ways your suggestion doesn't meet their listed requirements so they know what they're getting if they take your advice.
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Re: Board decision for mid-sized church

Declan Slater said:
Hey TJ,

I'm glad to see you enjoy taking the time to point out the free GLD app again, when I was talking about the $100 ILive app.. I'm sorry that my post had been confusing.
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Why are you talking about the ILive app? No one - not even you - has mentioned the ILive as a choice in this thread. The free app for the GLD seems to answer your criticism, no?
Declan Slater said:
Seems also odd to me to spend 2x more for 8 more channels, but yes.. You are correct, that mixer would clearly not qualify.
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I'm glad we finally agree. There are a few more differences than 8 channels, however.

Declan Slater said:
As to the M-48, "dumber" than the ME-1, - Really, that's the best you can do? You're not hiding your bias very well with comments about independent channel EQ being troublesome.

I never ment to ruffle your feathers here... Just thought it nice to toss in another, much cheaper idea.. No biggie... ;)
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I don't have bias in the manner you're implying - I'm not a dealer for A&H, Behringer, Roland, or anyone else. I'm not presuming the GLD is the best choice for the OP, and if he chose it, I would receive nothing other than confidence that the OP would have his needs well met. As someone who has invested a fair bit of time trying to help people out here on the forum, I do get annoyed with misinformation, whether it is about a product I happen to own, or not.
 
TJ Cornish said:
Why are you talking about the ILive app? No one - not even you - has mentioned the ILive as a choice in this thread. The free app for the GLD seems to answer your criticism, no?
I'm glad we finally agree. There are a few more differences than 8 channels, however.


I don't have bias in the manner you're implying - I'm not a dealer for A&H, Behringer, Roland, or anyone else. I'm not presuming the GLD is the best choice for the OP, and if he chose it, I would receive nothing other than confidence that the OP would have his needs well met. As someone who has invested a fair bit of time trying to help people out here on the forum, I do get annoyed with misinformation, whether it is about a product I happen to own, or not.
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I dated Miss Information for a while. It didn't go well. She had a tendency to clash with my Preconceptions from a previous relationship.
 
Re: Board decision for mid-sized church

Could you please clarify as to what "misinformation" your talking about then? I'm sorry, I don't understand, I thought you were talking about the fact that I accidently thought once that the GLD app cost $100 as well.

Of course there are differences between both consoles, good/bad/indifferent on both sides.

Is it a crime to mention another option then? Gee whiz...

TJ Cornish said:
Why are you talking about the ILive app? No one - not even you - has mentioned the ILive as a choice in this thread. The free app for the GLD seems to answer your criticism, no?
I'm glad we finally agree. There are a few more differences than 8 channels, however.


I don't have bias in the manner you're implying - I'm not a dealer for A&H, Behringer, Roland, or anyone else. I'm not presuming the GLD is the best choice for the OP, and if he chose it, I would receive nothing other than confidence that the OP would have his needs well met. As someone who has invested a fair bit of time trying to help people out here on the forum, I do get annoyed with misinformation, whether it is about a product I happen to own, or not.
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Re: Board decision for mid-sized church

Declan Slater said:
Could you please clarify as to what "misinformation" your talking about then? I'm sorry, I don't understand, I thought you were talking about the fact that I accidently thought once that the GLD app cost $100 as well.

Of course there are differences between both consoles, good/bad/indifferent on both sides.

Is it a crime to mention another option then? Gee whiz...
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I'll leave that as an exercize to other readers for those interested enough to bother looking back at your posts. Glad you're happy with your M200.
 
Re: Board decision for mid-sized church

I don't think the list of wants and needs are detailed enough to pinpoint an actual product. Pretty much every board under 10K that has enough inputs would qualify as an acceptable solution. However, the limiting factor in the choices is 36 inputs. Since most consoles are sold in multiples of 8, (not counting aux ins, etc) this automatically jumps you from a 32 input board to a 40 input board. Anything above 32 is going to put you into a totally different class. This wipes out the Presonus or Behringer as options, simply because both of those are 32 channels max.

Now, in looking at sound gear for a church, you do need to consider who the operators are going to be. If you allow untrained operators, you either need a simple board to use, or one that can be locked down so that they can't screw things up. An analog board with a thousand knobs can be extremely intimidating to a new user, whereas a digital board with very few knobs can seem easy to a newbie, as they don't see all of the power under the hood.

Back to the requirement of 36 inputs. Is it critical that all sound is run through a single console? Sometimes, it's more economical to run two smaller consoles and submix to get what you want. Eg, the band can be run as its own system, with its own monitors and that mix gets sent to the main board. Of course there are trade offs in limited flexibility of this option, but it's something that certainly should be looked at to see if it makes more sense.

Before setting the budget line, the actual requirements of the system should be spelled out, and options chosen. If the requirements dictate a higher budget than possible, you then have to decide which requirements are going to have to be shaven from the list. Setting an arbitrary budget of $10K can result in a lot of wasted money if you're buying more equipment than is actually needed to accomplish the task. If you talk to a salesperson and tell them you have $10K to spend, chances are, they are going to direct you to something close to that price range, even if your actual requirements could be accomplished with something that is a fraction of that price.
 
Re: Board decision for mid-sized church

Brian jojade said:
This wipes out the Presonus or Behringer as options, simply because both of those are 32 channels max.
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Actually the X32 can mix 32 mic channels + 6 Aux inputs = 38 channels of mixing (40 if you count the USB port). Since the OP didn't specify 36 mic inputs it may or may not work. Either way it wouldn't be ideal (imo) to purchase a mixer that at its max capacity meets your minimum requirements.

Back to the requirement of 36 inputs. Is it critical that all sound is run through a single console? Sometimes, it's more economical to run two smaller consoles and submix to get what you want.
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That may be true but in a Church setting with volunteers operating the equipment, sometimes simplicity and ease of operation trump. Submixing could potentially be an issue in that case. Also the OP did say digital and a budget of $10k, which means to get dual smaller mixers either means the Presonus, Behringer or Soundcraft...and two of those are on the "not an option" list. If they are open to analog options then sure, you could go the dual console route but in my opinion, I would prefer to have one good quality console over 2 lesser.

Just my 2cents :)
Jared
 
Re: Board decision for mid-sized church

I agree with a lot of those points, especially consideration of ease of use for the operators.

I find that it is important to look at all the options available, and whatever can get the job done for a price that could even allow for a spare console as a redundant backup is a fantastic idea!
 
Re: Board decision for mid-sized church

Brian jojade said:
I don't think the list of wants and needs are detailed enough to pinpoint an actual product. Pretty much every board under 10K that has enough inputs would qualify as an acceptable solution. However, the limiting factor in the choices is 36 inputs.
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I agree, is it 36 full mic/line inputs or 36 inputs of some type? 10 Aux sends but what other buses and outputs are required? Are DCAs desired? Multichannel USB recording? Recallable preamps? Any physical size restrictions? Any specific processing or effects desired? Do you need/want channel inserts? There are many details that might be relevant and could eliminate or suggest specific consoles.
 
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