Crestron/AMX Installers

Matt Bauer

Freshman
Oct 31, 2011
47
0
6
Austin, TX
Hey all,

I'm interested in getting into Crestron/AMX programming as I'm a Computer Science major as well as an audio systems technician. If anyone would let me pick their brains a little bit I would be extremely appreciative.

Thanks,

Matt Bauer
[email protected]
 
Re: Crestron/AMX Installers

Hey all,

I'm interested in getting into Crestron/AMX programming as I'm a Computer Science major as well as an audio systems technician. If anyone would let me pick their brains a little bit I would be extremely appreciative.

Thanks,

Matt Bauer
[email protected]
You said installation in the title-but mention programming in the text. Very different things.

Typically the guys who install it are not the programmers.

I am neither-but have been to the "level 1" class. And I would NOT even begin to think I knew anything more than conceptual about the programming side. But this does allow me to talk half way intelligently to the programmers when trying to interface and control various audio systems.

As far as I know (I could be wrong) the only way to get into the programming class is to be working for a dealer who sells Crestron.

There is quite a bit to it-so in order to get some answers-you need to ask some specific questions. Of course that may be a bit hard without knowing or working with the various programs.
 
Re: Crestron/AMX Installers

I'm not confident Crestron/AMX control systems are going to continue being as popular as they once were. Everything is moving towards web based control, a smartphone/tablet is a lot cheaper than getting a dedicated touchscreen controller. Plenty of IP based serial/IR/GPIO controllers out there for cheap! Software tools are plentiful.
 
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Re: Crestron/AMX Installers

I'm not confident Crestron/AMX control systems are going to continue being as popular as they once were. Everything is moving towards web based control, a smartphone/tablet is a lot cheaper than getting a dedicated touchscreen controller. Plenty of IP based serial/IR/GPIO controllers out there for cheap! Software tools are plentiful.
A lot of the Crestron products provide HARDWARE control/switching etc and all at the same time.

For example you can press a button and switch video inputs-audio sources-trip a relay-send out an RS232 stream and so forth.

Of course there is a lot of progress going on in the way of control in todays world.
 
Re: Crestron/AMX Installers

For example you can press a button and switch video inputs-audio sources-trip a relay-send out an RS232 stream and so forth.
Considering that a lot of the industry is headed to IP control, whether it's a parallel or sequenced process, it really doesn't matter that much anymore like it used to when you had a ton of RS232 ports and GPIO to deal with simultaneously.
 
Re: Crestron/AMX Installers

From what I see, AMX and Crestron ARE doing IP control and are still at the top when it comes to custom touchpanel control systems.

They are still at the mercy of the equipment they have to control though, so you won't be seeing an end to RS-232 in control systems for a while.

(And in my opinion, there's nothing wrong with RS-232 if it's done right and it's still simpler and cheaper for a manufacturer to implement.)

Also the programming aspect of a control system won't differ much no matter if it's IP or Serial from a logic and touchpanel standpoint, if anything the need for qualified programmers will increase and so will what they have to know.

I find the market for unified control systems is increasing due to the proliferation of ipad type devices and the "it just works" philosophy that's permeated consumer electronics -now people that would never had considered including one in their budget for a new system are now demanding it, and only the top tier AMX or crestron type of companies can deliver.

Find me an "IP based serial/IR/GPIO controllers out there for cheap!" that actually works well and I might consider it. Meanwhile I've fought with them enough to defer to the experts.
 
Re: Crestron/AMX Installers

Here you go: iTach | Global Caché
and this: Control Systems for Home Automation - CommandFusion
Plenty more out there if you look.
Because such control systems often have their beginnings in residential applications many seem to be based on the concept of an individuals being able to control things. They seem to more about someone controlling everything from a personal computing device than about a room having an integrated control capability. Some rely on a computer, iPad, laptop, etc. running the related software or app and without that device being connected there is no control possible. Many, if not most, offer no user interface options such as dedicated touchpanels or wall mount control panels. While this may make such systems well suited for some applications it also can make them inappropriate for other applications.
 
Re: Crestron/AMX Installers

Because such control systems often have their beginnings in residential applications many seem to be based on the concept of an individuals being able to control things. They seem to more about someone controlling everything from a personal computing device than about a room having an integrated control capability. Some rely on a computer, iPad, laptop, etc. running the related software or app and without that device being connected there is no control possible. Many, if not most, offer no user interface options such as dedicated touchpanels or wall mount control panels. While this may make such systems well suited for some applications it also can make them inappropriate for other applications.

iPad+mount=dedicated touch panel

And yes, those global cache units do include the ability to run their own scripts based on contact closures or 232 inputs.

As with everything else in AV, the same pile of equipment installed by two different firms can result in VERY different user experiences (that includes Crestron/AMX too)
That's not a jab at anyone. I mean that just because someone can put an ipad and wifi unit together and make a crappy system doesn't mean that in the right hands it couldn't rival the most expensive options..

Jason
 
Re: Crestron/AMX Installers

iPad+mount=dedicated touch panel
iPad + mount + control system = the possibility of three different manufacturers, three different product sources, etc. And one of the issues I have with iPads in installed systems is that many people seem to assume that a Contractor or system provider can run to WalMart to get one or order it online and then support it as an integral component in the system. The reality is that unless that Contractor or system provider is an authorized Apple dealer then they probably cannot 'pass through' any warranty or support. Thus an installed system that relies in an iPad to function is one that must be provided by an authorized iPad dealer or a system that may be limited in being properly warrantied and supported as an integrated system.
 
Re: Crestron/AMX Installers

iPad + mount + control system = the possibility of three different manufacturers, three different product sources, etc. And one of the issues I have with iPads in installed systems is that many people seem to assume that a Contractor or system provider can run to WalMart to get one or order it online and then support it as an integral component in the system. The reality is that unless that Contractor or system provider is an authorized Apple dealer then they probably cannot 'pass through' any warranty or support. Thus an installed system that relies in an iPad to function is one that must be provided by an authorized iPad dealer or a system that may be limited in being properly warrantied and supported as an integrated system.

I'm not sure I follow..
When we install a system we provide a full 1-year parts & labour warranty, so within the first year if anything needs repair we handle it end to end anyway, so it's actually best if the iPad was purchased by us. After our warranty is up so is the iPad's so it doesn't really matter if the customer was the original purchaser.

I do agree a bit with your hesitance to use three separate suppliers, but if you go the commandfusion route, they have the software and the control system so the only real outlier is the iPad, and really, if you only ever put one app on the thing and don't connect it to the web you'll never have any issues that commandfusion wouldn't be able to sort out.

The only problem that I've had with using iPads is that there is no way to lock the wifi settings, so it's easy for someone to snoop and try to connect the thing to the web and then the next person can't use it. This can be avoided by jailbreaking etc. though

Jason
 
Re: Crestron/AMX Installers

Some rely on a computer, iPad, laptop, etc. running the related software or app and without that device being connected there is no control possible. Many, if not most, offer no user interface options such as dedicated touchpanels or wall mount control panels. While this may make such systems well suited for some applications it also can make them inappropriate for other applications.

Hi All,

Aaron from CommandFusion here. Just thought I would jump in and offer my assistance.

With regards to the above quote: while we do certainly have a mobile device application to control our hardware (and almost any other brand) via a custom GUI, you can also control our system from switches and custom keypads etc.

To utilise a custom keypad with our hardware, you would use the SW16 SW16 - CommandFusion
To use a switch of some sort, you can just use any IO port on any of our devices.

I'm happy to answer any questions in here, or via private message. You can also email me via aaron AT commandfusion.com

Control Systems for Home Automation - CommandFusion
 
Re: Crestron/AMX Installers

I'm not sure I follow..
When we install a system we provide a full 1-year parts & labour warranty, so within the first year if anything needs repair we handle it end to end anyway, so it's actually best if the iPad was purchased by us. After our warranty is up so is the iPad's so it doesn't really matter if the customer was the original purchaser.
Some companies will do that and will be around but what if a provider does not provide a system warranty, is no longer involved (or the Owner does not want to involve them) or is no longer in business?

With many products any warranty applies only if they are purchased from an authorized dealer. Many warranties also apply only to the original purchaser and are non-transferable. Providing a system warranty that includes products for which someone is not an authorized dealer is common and sometimes unavoidable, however as a result of these issues I have also seen such situations go awry even with good companies involved.

A simple example, say you sell a system that includes an iPad and something goes wrong with the iPad, is there any applicable warranty since your Client did not purchase it from an authorized dealer and your Client essentially purchased a 'used' product? Or are you going to have to provide a replacement at your expense? And if there is a warranty, how does that work, is Apple going to ship a replacement unit overnight?

I also think that where iPads, tablets, laptops, etc. are involved that Contractors and Integrators may also have to be more diligent about addressing that system warranties do not cover lost, damaged, stolen, modified (i.e. a relevant app removed or altered) products or any programming, labor, etc. related to such issues.
 
Re: Crestron/AMX Installers

In response to the original question, it is fairly easy to begin programming mid to low level systems in amx or crestron. With the availability of system builder and a future AMX variant, almost anyone can do it. The real trick comes when integrating very high end systems; $10M+ for fortune 100 companies. Very few people can do it correctly and the firm I am currently employed by outsources programming because the 100+ staff programmers we have can only handle small to medium level integrations.

Specifically, AMX is written in pure C with manufacturer specific modules called "include files" while crestron uses either an object oriented environment or a hard code environment called simpl+ depending on the programmers comfort.

Good luck with your programming efforts.
 
Re: Crestron/AMX Installers

Looking into these vendors now, but having been burned once badly installing consumer-intended stuff in commercial environments I re-enter those waters with much trepidation.

I also don't like installing ipads in such environments because apple just won't let them be. The device is always pestering to do upgrades or something of a pop-up nature that when OK'd by the user might break the functionality. That and most users always want to screw with it by playing angry birds or installing pandora and facebook on it. They really need to put a "kiosk mode" on it (-or allow their app developers to do it)

I also wish these remote apps would also offer Android capability. Nobody wants to steal an android tablet and even if you do it doesn't cost you $500+ to replace it!

Here you go: iTach | Global Caché
and this: Control Systems for Home Automation - CommandFusion
Plenty more out there if you look.
 
Re: Crestron/AMX Installers

Looking into these vendors now, but having been burned once badly installing consumer-intended stuff in commercial environments I re-enter those waters with much trepidation.
This is certainly understandable. "Once bitten, twice shy" as the saying goes.

However, I can say that I have installed several of these iTach devices of various flavors and they always seem to function well and do what they are supposed to do.

I have had zero problems with both Global Cache iTach and the Moxa NPort products. They always seem to work well, every time.
 
Re: Crestron/AMX Installers

Old thread but here's my 2 cents... Oh and first post!

I work for a Crestron dealer and do the design, the installation, and the programming...and only commercial, no residential. Crestron has a lot more to offer than just control. A large percentage of our installs are centered around Crestrons digital video switching and multi-window processors. Most of the control is IP based and both iPad/iPhone and Android apps are available as well as a web interface.


Getting training, software, and support as a dealer is easy but I'm not sure if an individual is able to gain access to these resources. Although, someone at one of the universities in town was able to go to the programming classes recently so...

Matt, let me know if you still have any questions.
 
Re: Crestron/AMX Installers

Since this thread has come back to life, since my previous post I had a chance to see the new AMX Rapid Project Maker, which is a very slick piece of software that makes it possible for someone with a basic understanding of AV systems to create a project file including the control code for many common AV systems. But that presentation also brought up the other side to that where many 'programmers' can program within the limitations but don't necessarily understand the full potential of the underlying code. I've had a number of programmers tell me you can't do what I asked when I know you can and that what they are really saying is not that it can't be done but rather that they don't know how to do it or it isn't possible with the software they use to create the programs.

An example, years ago I found out that with some source devices that if you push Play with no media inserted they will not go into play and will return an error code to say there is no media. Few packaged control code blocks address that but it is possible to use that to program the system such that if someone pushes Play on a touchpanel without any media inserted it not only will not show the device in play mode but provides a text message on the panel that there is no media. I had one programmer do this with no trouble but another later told me it could not be done - after I had already seen it work with the same devices. The reality was that it couldn't be done with the standard code block the manufacturer provided for the device but it could be done if you knew how to program at a deeper level.

Unfortunately, I am seeing fewer and fewer programmers who can work at that level and hearing more "it's not in the standard code the manufacturer provides" arguments.
 
Re: Crestron/AMX Installers

Since this thread has come back to life, since my previous post I had a chance to see the new AMX Rapid Project Maker, which is a very slick piece of software that makes it possible for someone with a basic understanding of AV systems to create a project file including the control code for many common AV systems. But that presentation also brought up the other side to that where many 'programmers' can program within the limitations but don't necessarily understand the full potential of the underlying code. I've had a number of programmers tell me you can't do what I asked when I know you can and that what they are really saying is not that it can't be done but rather that they don't know how to do it or it isn't possible with the software they use to create the programs.

An example, years ago I found out that with some source devices that if you push Play with no media inserted they will not go into play and will return an error code to say there is no media. Few packaged control code blocks address that but it is possible to use that to program the system such that if someone pushes Play on a touchpanel without any media inserted it not only will not show the device in play mode but provides a text message on the panel that there is no media. I had one programmer do this with no trouble but another later told me it could not be done - after I had already seen it work with the same devices. The reality was that it couldn't be done with the standard code block the manufacturer provided for the device but it could be done if you knew how to program at a deeper level.

Unfortunately, I am seeing fewer and fewer programmers who can work at that level and hearing more "it's not in the standard code the manufacturer provides" arguments.
It is truly sad in our industry. More and more people are knowing less and less. I see systems all the time in which the audio installer simply puts in the manufacturers "presets" and walks away. There is no adjustment for the "system"-as long as each box is correct-WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have even seen systems with NO processing-even on the subs-and the installer thinks it sounds "just fine". DO WHAT????????

I guess as long as it "makes sound" they are happy. I guess they are happy they could get it to "make sound".

If one truly understands what all the pieces do, and how to use them, then can do some pretty amazing stuff-with sound systems-control programming etc.

But if you just want to take the easy way out-then there will be all kinds of things you can't do.

WAY to many people are simply looking for the easy way out and the simple to understand WRONG answers.

It is no wonder that the overall quality is getting lower-despite have much better tools than we used to have.

But of course in the 'ol days-you had to know what was going on and understand things to get them to work. Now any idiot can go to GC and get a decent sound system-and go and install it wrong-and everybody is "happy" because it sounds like the other crap systems that people are putting in.

Sorry to rant-but there are simply to many people in our industry that don't have a clue-AND DON'T WANT TO-that is the truly sad part.
 
Re: Crestron/AMX Installers

Speaking of cool stuff with sound and control systems, we did a 7.1 surround system (with Danley speakers) in the FL Senate Chamber so when a senator is recognized and his mic is turned on (with Crestron control/Media Matrix DSP) his voice is oriented in the sound field based on his desk location. And of course mix minus and individual delay to all 40 desk speakers. We also put in a Crestron multi-window processor and digital video/audio/usb matrix to stream line their production desk. They used to swap an analog vga cable between two or three laptops but now they have control of three remote PCs, one local PC, Bluray, audio, etc from a single 24" touch screen.