Subwoofer "Throw", Facebook... huh?

Sep 12, 2012
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SW Ontario
I know, I know. Paying attention to commenters on PA of the Day is the height of pointlessness, but this one threw me for a loop.

"horn loaded W-bins will be especially efficient at 30-40 ft away while the bass reflex 2x18's should work nicely for the up close crowd,"

And later:

"
the wavelength of a 50 hz sinusodial wave is roughly the length of the afore mentioned and obtains its nominal low frequency reproduction at said distance"

I've done research on this in the past, and in reviewing that research some posts by Ivan and Art seem to indicate that this guy doesn't have a clue, can someone explain to me what this guy is trying to assert? He's not the most pleasant fellow, he seemed to get pretty agitated but I feel like he is completely off base, but I figure it's worth checking my work here and possibly learning something new rather than just writing the information off as wrong. :confused::confused::confused:
 
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Re: Subwoofer "Throw", Facebook... huh?

I know, I know. Paying attention to commenters on PA of the Day is the height of pointlessness, but this one threw me for a loop.

"horn loaded W-bins will be especially efficient at 30-40 ft away while the bass reflex 2x18's should work nicely for the up close crowd,"

And later:

"
the wavelength of a 50 hz sinusodial wave is roughly the length of the afore mentioned and obtains its nominal low frequency reproduction at said distance"

I've done research on this in the past, and in reviewing that research some posts by Ivan and Art seem to indicate that this guy doesn't have a clue, can someone explain to me what this guy is trying to assert? He's not the most pleasant fellow, he seemed to get pretty agitated but I feel like he is completely off base, but I figure it's worth checking my work here and possibly learning something new rather than just writing the information off as wrong. :confused::confused::confused:
With horn loaded woofers-you have a slightly different "effect" on the inverse square law than with front loaded devices.

If you were to take 2 subs ( a relatively long horn -not a short horn) and a front loaded sub-have them at the same SPL at say 30-40' away and then walk towards them-you will notice something.

As you get closer and closer to the front loaded cabinet-it will get louder and louder. The same thing will happen with the horn loaded sub-except that when you start to get close (say 10-15') it will not get as loud as fast.

The reason is that the acoustic origin of the horn woofer is not at the front of the cabinet-but rather deep inside-and it has already started its "expansion" and inverse square losses before it gets to the front of the cabinet. So even though the cabinets are physically lined up-the woofers are not.

So if you were to actually measure at 1M and set the levels the same-at a distance the horn loaded woofer will be louder-hence the reason many people say they "throw" further.

That is exactly the reason Danley measures subs at a distance of 10M-to account for this "apparent abnormal" loss up close to the cabinet. And also the fact that the physical size of the subs would give a false impression of a higher SPL at the 1M distance-ALTHOUGH the numbers would be correct-for THAT distance.

To me-the whole idea of a specs is to have a set of numbers-that a real designer can use to estimate SPL over larger distances. Most people do not listen @1M-so you need realistic numbers to give an idea what the performance will be at say 100 or 200' (or greater). Yes you can play some "games" with the numbers and measurements (and would not be lying-per say), but those specs don't give an idea of real world performance.

Just like giving the sensitivity of a sub spec-without showing any measured data-you have NO idea where that SPL came from. Pretty much a worthless spec-if you ask me. Or adding a 10dB (or more) boost on the low end of a sup response to get the spec sheet numbers "with processing" to look better. HOWEVER you are NO LONGER putting 1 watt (or 2.83V) into the system-you are putting 10 watts or 28.3V into it-so the numbers are VERY deceiving-but people still "latch" onto those numbers as if they would be useful. They will be correct-UNTIL you turn it up! THEN you HAVE to subtract that same amount of boost from the maximum output spec-but nobody ever does that-that would not "look" as good-----------------------------------

The idea of using the size of the wavelength is just plain STUPID. IF that were the case-how do they explain how you get bass in headphones-or inside a car? You are not far enough away for the bass waves to develope-so therefore you should not be ables to hear them-yet we do just fine.

Another example of just looking at one little aspect and thinking it tells the whole story.
 
Re: Subwoofer "Throw", Facebook... huh?

Or adding a 10dB (or more) boost on the low end of a sub response to get the spec sheet numbers "with processing" to look better. HOWEVER you are NO LONGER putting 1 watt (or 2.83V) into the system-you are putting 10 watts or 28.3V into it-

Fingers getting ahead of the brain there Ivan?

+10dB in voltage ain't 10x...

(not that that changes your underlying point, which is perfectly correct of course)

David.
 
Re: Subwoofer "Throw", Facebook... huh?

With horn loaded woofers-you have a slightly different "effect" on the inverse square law than with front loaded devices.

If you were to take 2 subs ( a relatively long horn -not a short horn) and a front loaded sub-have them at the same SPL at say 30-40' away and then walk towards them-you will notice something.

As you get closer and closer to the front loaded cabinet-it will get louder and louder. The same thing will happen with the horn loaded sub-except that when you start to get close (say 10-15') it will not get as loud as fast.

The reason is that the acoustic origin of the horn woofer is not at the front of the cabinet-but rather deep inside-and it has already started its "expansion" and inverse square losses before it gets to the front of the cabinet. So even though the cabinets are physically lined up-the woofers are not.

So if you were to actually measure at 1M and set the levels the same-at a distance the horn loaded woofer will be louder-hence the reason many people say they "throw" further.

That is exactly the reason Danley measures subs at a distance of 10M-to account for this "apparent abnormal" loss up close to the cabinet. And also the fact that the physical size of the subs would give a false impression of a higher SPL at the 1M distance-ALTHOUGH the numbers would be correct-for THAT distance.

I've read a lot of your posts - along with posts by Art and Dave Gunness - on the old LAB on the subject so I'm familiar with that phenomena, I've even experienced it myself while comparing some FLH and BR designs.

The idea of using the size of the wavelength is just plain STUPID. IF that were the case-how do they explain how you get bass in headphones-or inside a car? You are not far enough away for the bass waves to develope-so therefore you should not be ables to hear them-yet we do just fine.

That's exactly what the guy seemed to be implying, when pressed on the issue he got pretty angry and started attacking me with ad homonyms, I guess that's my own fault for expecting intelligent discussion on that page :lol:

Edit: It's also worth noting that the design in question is a 6th order band pass design, I'd be interested to know how it's output responds both in the near field and a longer distances. I assume it doesn't have the necessary "path length" to respond like a FLH?
 
Re: Subwoofer "Throw", Facebook... huh?

As you get closer and closer to the front loaded cabinet-it will get louder and louder. The same thing will happen with the horn loaded sub-except that when you start to get close (say 10-15') it will not get as loud as fast.

The reason is that the acoustic origin of the horn woofer is not at the front of the cabinet-but rather deep inside-and it has already started its "expansion" and inverse square losses before it gets to the front of the cabinet. So even though the cabinets are physically lined up-the woofers are not.

So if you were to actually measure at 1M and set the levels the same-at a distance the horn loaded woofer will be louder-hence the reason many people say they "throw" further.

Fascinating,

Is it the case that if a person stood 1M away from each sub and then took a 1M step backwards the proportional increase in distance from the acoustic origin would be lesser for the horn loaded sub than it would be for the front loaded sub?

Similar to standing in a spot with one point source 1M away (A) and another point souce 2M away (B) and taking a 1M step back. You would have doubled your distance from A and only added an extra 50% of your distance from B, so it wouldn't get quieter as much.

Have I got this right?

Chris
 
Re: Subwoofer "Throw", Facebook... huh?

Fascinating,

Is it the case that if a person stood 1M away from each sub and then took a 1M step backwards the proportional increase in distance from the acoustic origin would be lesser for the horn loaded sub than it would be for the front loaded sub?

Similar to standing in a spot with one point source 1M away (A) and another point souce 2M away (B) and taking a 1M step back. You would have doubled your distance from A and only added an extra 50% of your distance from B, so it wouldn't get quieter as much.

Have I got this right?

Chris
Think of it this way.

Let's say the horn is 2M long and you are 1M away from the front of the cabinet-or 3M from the driver. You are also 1 M away from the front loaded cabinet.

So when you step back another meter-you have doubled the distance from the front loaded cabinet-yet you are now 4M from the driver in the horn-instead of the 3 you were earlier. So the ratio of change is not the same.

You need to look at the distance from the SOURCE-NOT the front of the cabinet.
 
Re: Subwoofer "Throw", Facebook... huh?

Fascinating,

Is it the case that if a person stood 1M away from each sub and then took a 1M step backwards the proportional increase in distance from the acoustic origin would be lesser for the horn loaded sub than it would be for the front loaded sub?

Similar to standing in a spot with one point source 1M away (A) and another point souce 2M away (B) and taking a 1M step back. You would have doubled your distance from A and only added an extra 50% of your distance from B, so it wouldn't get quieter as much.

Have I got this right?

Chris
Chris,

Having actually tested the above, I would say no.
Ivan and I seem to be slightly at odds regarding this point.

Over the course of forty years professionally listening to and testing hundreds of BR, FLH, and recently TH, I have found the various cabinet types to all conform to the inverse distance law.
The inverse distance law, simply stated says every time we move away from a sound source, doubling our distance from it, the sound pressure level decreases by 6 dB (6.02 precisely).
In single units of the above, this has been true even from one meter onward, while in large arrays, it has been true from a distance roughly the diagonal of the array on out when the array has been roughly square .

The inverse is also true, half the distance to the source sound pressure level increases by 6 dB, though when one measures quite close to a large radiating source the “law” breaks down, at some point the level will no longer increase.
In May 2010 I tested a small ported Lab 12 compared to a 15" "CHorn", Phil Lewandowski tested a JBL SRX 718 compared to a Growler. The C horn and Growler are similar size and shaped horns with path lengths of around 2 meters.

Although the acoustic origin from a time alignment standpoint is approximately the same as the horn path length, the output drops with the inverse square law once it leaves the horn.

Rog Mogale of Void Acoustics also tested horns compared to bass reflex and they both found they followed the inverse distance law, within one dB in Rog's more controlled testing.
Rog Mogale's test used a small 4th order bandpass sub with a single 12" woofer compared to an 18” horn loaded design, and found it only 1 dB louder from 8 meters and beyond.

http://www.voidaudio.com/pdf/lffaq.pdf


Josh Ricci has extensive testing experience documented on his Data Bass website.
He wrote:
"The diaphragm may be further inside the horn but that is completely irrelevant to the listener or end user other than perhaps for setting delays between cabs. When you simulate something in Hornresp or another program it calculates the acoustic performance at some specified distance from the final radiation point of the cabinet, not from a driver sitting 3m or whatever inside. “

The exception is when the the horn mouth diameter is larger than the measurement distance, but the same exception holds true for a large direct radiator array, when the measurement distance is within the array diameter, going closer to the source no longer increases level.

In regard to full range frequency measurements, Pat Brown wrote :
"A working “rule-of-thumb” for determining the boundary between near-field and far-field is to make the minimum measurement distance the longest dimension of the loudspeaker multiplied by 3.
He then writes:

"It is often thought that a remote measurement position is necessary for low frequencies since their wavelengths are long. Actually the opposite is true. It is more difficult to get into the far-field of a device at high frequencies, since the shorter wavelengths make the criteria in Item 4 more difficult to satisfy.

Item 4:
4. The distance from the source where the path length difference for wave arrivals from points on the device on the surface plane perpendicular to the point of observation are within one-quarter wavelength at the highest frequency of interest ."

This is an important distinction between high frequency and low frequency measurement, criteria #4 can be satisfied at 95 Hz for a subwoofer of one square meter measured at one meter.

At any rate, the diameter of the subwoofer, not the path length of the horn determine when the inverse distance law kicks in.

Art
 
Re: Subwoofer "Throw", Facebook... huh?

Chris,

Having actually tested the above, I would say no.
Ivan and I seem to be slightly at odds regarding this point.

Over the course of forty years professionally listening to and testing hundreds of BR, FLH, and recently TH, I have found the various cabinet types to all conform to the inverse distance law.
The inverse distance law, simply stated says every time we move away from a sound source, doubling our distance from it, the sound pressure level decreases by 6 dB (6.02 precisely).
In single units of the above, this has been true even from one meter onward, while in large arrays, it has been true from a distance roughly the diagonal of the array on out when the array has been roughly square .

The inverse is also true, half the distance to the source sound pressure level increases by 6 dB, though when one measures quite close to a large radiating source the “law” breaks down, at some point the level will no longer increase.
In May 2010 I tested a small ported Lab 12 compared to a 15" "CHorn", Phil Lewandowski tested a JBL SRX 718 compared to a Growler. The C horn and Growler are similar size and shaped horns with path lengths of around 2 meters.

Although the acoustic origin from a time alignment standpoint is approximately the same as the horn path length, the output drops with the inverse square law once it leaves the horn.

Rog Mogale of Void Acoustics also tested horns compared to bass reflex and they both found they followed the inverse distance law, within one dB in Rog's more controlled testing.
Rog Mogale's test used a small 4th order bandpass sub with a single 12" woofer compared to an 18” horn loaded design, and found it only 1 dB louder from 8 meters and beyond.

http://www.voidaudio.com/pdf/lffaq.pdf


Josh Ricci has extensive testing experience documented on his Data Bass website.
He wrote:
"The diaphragm may be further inside the horn but that is completely irrelevant to the listener or end user other than perhaps for setting delays between cabs. When you simulate something in Hornresp or another program it calculates the acoustic performance at some specified distance from the final radiation point of the cabinet, not from a driver sitting 3m or whatever inside. “

The exception is when the the horn mouth diameter is larger than the measurement distance, but the same exception holds true for a large direct radiator array, when the measurement distance is within the array diameter, going closer to the source no longer increases level.

In regard to full range frequency measurements, Pat Brown wrote :
"A working “rule-of-thumb” for determining the boundary between near-field and far-field is to make the minimum measurement distance the longest dimension of the loudspeaker multiplied by 3.
He then writes:

"It is often thought that a remote measurement position is necessary for low frequencies since their wavelengths are long. Actually the opposite is true. It is more difficult to get into the far-field of a device at high frequencies, since the shorter wavelengths make the criteria in Item 4 more difficult to satisfy.

Item 4:
4. The distance from the source where the path length difference for wave arrivals from points on the device on the surface plane perpendicular to the point of observation are within one-quarter wavelength at the highest frequency of interest ."

This is an important distinction between high frequency and low frequency measurement, criteria #4 can be satisfied at 95 Hz for a subwoofer of one square meter measured at one meter.

At any rate, the diameter of the subwoofer, not the path length of the horn determine when the inverse distance law kicks in.

Art

Looking at it another way...

Up close to a vented design, vs. up close to the mouth of a horn-the radiating area is typically much larger than even a double 18" sub, ergo the intensity one feels in the nearfield is different given the same spl, combined with the extra path length of the horn increasing the relative distance to the nearfield listening position.


Best regards,

John
 
Re: Subwoofer "Throw", Facebook... huh?

Hi
I think I can put a sharper point on this. To be sure, I have heard what sounds like horns having more throw or being stronger at distance than the direct radiators.
The reason is the rate of change in the loudness gradient up close. An optical analogy, lets say you had two light sources, each of which put out 1W of light energy.
One radiated from a half inch diameter and the other from a 2 by 4 foot panel. Into the room, they each provide the same candle power BUT up close, the tiny aperture is too bright to look at.
A 15 inch cone and port producing the same distant SPL as a 2 by 4 foot horn mouth, which one sounds louder up close next to it? In either case, a light meter or sound meter shows the larger source radiating the same total power must have the lower surface intensity.
As Art mentioned too, there is a minimum distance one needs to be before the size of the object is small compared to the distance because up close, a solid object is not the same as that meter airspace would be. This space distortion extends to the radiation pattern too;
Far-field Criteria for Loudspeaker Balloon Data « Synergetic Audio Concepts

For Ivan and I at work, what matters is a 1W1M equivalent so that contractors can figure out how loud and at what Voltage it will be at say 100Meters or whatever.
To make it easy, the large stuff is measured at 10 meters (-20dB from 1M) and then driven at 10X the normal Voltage (+20dB) so that the result is a 1W 1M equivalent.
Other than that, nothing magic about the distance.
Another reason to measure at a greater distance vs up close is that up close if loud, ones pressure microphone can also pick up “psudo-sound” which is an non-radiating erroneously high SPL reading caused by the kinetic impact of air molecules with the diaphragm (but is a not radiating pressure). John and i ran into this with several loud noise makers like a loud siren thing in the old days. If it's loud enough to move or blow out a flame, it's loud enough to potentially cause this effect too (if the reading is the same with the mic turned 90 degrees, that' a good sign).
Best,
Tom Danley
 
Re: Subwoofer "Throw", Facebook... huh?

Think of it this way.

Let's say the horn is 2M long and you are 1M away from the front of the cabinet-or 3M from the driver. You are also 1 M away from the front loaded cabinet.

So when you step back another meter-you have doubled the distance from the front loaded cabinet-yet you are now 4M from the driver in the horn-instead of the 3 you were earlier. So the ratio of change is not the same.

You need to look at the distance from the SOURCE-NOT the front of the cabinet.


A lot of people don't realize this but this is also the reason why some mics "drop off as soon as you back off the mic". The singer was simply a lot closer to the mic capsule to begin with! In the Audix OM7 design the singer is so close, it's common to replace the mic several times during a set where the vocalist is really belting it out while singing "lips on mic"-style.
 
Re: Subwoofer "Throw", Facebook... huh?

A lot of people don't realize this but this is also the reason why some mics "drop off as soon as you back off the mic". The singer was simply a lot closer to the mic capsule to begin with! In the Audix OM7 design the singer is so close, it's common to replace the mic several times during a set where the vocalist is really belting it out while singing "lips on mic"-style.

Yep! It also has something to do with the size of the diaphragm on the mic. The Inverse square law is based on a point source. Up close (to either a microphone or a speaker), the solution to the wave equations do not result in an inverse square drop off because the source is not a point.

Once you start getting a little further away ..... more like a point the further away you get.

It seems to me (from my experience) that folded horns put out more volume than the same power driver would in an DR bin. They also sound ..... well, woofey if that makes any sense. I had always attributed this to the horn being tuned to some frequencies more than others while a direct radiating sub gave a more rounded frequency response ..... but then I could be wrong.

I have frequently heard that folded horns are "long throw" subs while DR's are shorter throw. I am not sure how to reconcile this with the physics and math of wave theory.
 
Re: Subwoofer "Throw", Facebook... huh?

I have frequently heard that folded horns are "long throw" subs while DR's are shorter throw. I am not sure how to reconcile this with the physics and math of wave theory.
Reconcile it with idiots repeating myths that have no basis in measured fact, not with physics.
 
Re: Subwoofer "Throw", Facebook... huh?

Reconcile it with idiots repeating myths that have no basis in measured fact, not with physics.

Agreed. Most of the shows I've attended in the past 10 years have used direct radiator subs, be it small club, arena, or a stadium. There has never been an issue with "throw" all the way to the back of the venue.
 
Re: Subwoofer "Throw", Facebook... huh?

I hate the term "throw". Speakers don't throw anything at all. The speaker vibrates which means it does work on the air. Because it does work, energy is transferred. That energy then propagates in the form of a wave. The properties of that wave are well defined and predictable.


It is like that other old false argument that won't die, if two waves combine at a point in space and have destructive interference, then the wave does not go past that point and remains cancelled everywhere else.
 
Re: Subwoofer "Throw", Facebook... huh?

I want to give a big thank you to everyone who has contributed, I can honestly say my understanding on the topic is greater now than it was a few days ago.

Art, Ivan: Your contributions to the community are invaluable, even if your viewpoints are not the same on this issue, the theory and explanations are much appreciated.

One last question if I may. What is the consensus on Even Order distortion and how it pertains to FLH vs BR designs?

I know that BFM asserts that BR typically has higher levels of distortion which can cloud measurements up close, but I also know that Art and some other guys have measured FLH designs such as the Growler and found them to have fairly substantial amounts of distortion.
 
Re: Subwoofer "Throw", Facebook... huh?

One last question if I may. What is the consensus on Even Order distortion and how it pertains to FLH vs BR designs?

I know that BFM asserts that BR typically has higher levels of distortion which can cloud measurements up close, but I also know that Art and some other guys have measured FLH designs such as the Growler and found them to have fairly substantial amounts of distortion.
The biggest "cloud" one sees in most BFM measurements is the crayon he uses to smooth his traces ;^).

A FLH typically has several folds which tend to filter both even and odd order harmonics to the same extent as it's raw frequency response is rolled off on the top end compared to a BR.
Horn loading can increase output per watt, so the distortion can be lower per given SPL compared to BR.
Horn loading increases stress on the cone for a given excursion, so although a horn loaded design may have less distortion at low to medium drive levels, it may have more at high drive levels, while also increasing SPL.

As distortion rises with increased level, the output spectrum will reflect the same, there will be a rise in upper response compared to LF at high drive levels.
A FLH with a small compression chamber tends to limit excursion at high drive levels, BR ports tend to choke at high drive levels, the net result for both is similar.

Interestingly, tapped horns (at least mine :^)) choke more upper response at high drive level.

At any rate, different designs all have different excursion minima and maxima frequency locations, giving a different distortion signature when driven to Xmax and beyond, so even when equalized the same will have different sound when pushed to the max.

One other observation to make is even a single small horn loaded sub like many of the BFM designs or the Growler, or the DSL TH-Mini or TH-115 or 118 actually have a narrowing pattern in the upper end of the response compared to a BR.
Just as a 60 degree horn concentrates more SPL on axis than a 90 degree horn and thus has higher sensitivity, same goes for horn loaded bass Vs front loaded bass.
In a small room, the more narrow upper end dispersion the horn affords will put less of upper "kick" in the center compared to the wider BR, giving the impression that it "throws further" as one comes in to the "power alley" upper pattern a bit further back.