Sound Provider Refusing Band Engineer?

John Chiara

John Chiara

Senior
Jan 11, 2011
931
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Troy, NY
I have a show coming up and the provider for the event...a former friend and employer... Has already instructed his crew at other events that I am not allowed near his gear or his crew members. It seems to be a personal thing with him and I have never done anything to harm his gear...obviously...and the last show I attended his crew chief asked me for any advice on the system and then in our personal conversation accused me of playing politics and threatening his job security... I was talking about mix position and sub array coverage...not sure what he wanted me to comment on. Wonder how to have the band deal with the upcoming show. When I am providing the bands show is the bands show, and I just babysit to protect my gear and help him do the best show possible, but would never tell a band hired engineer he could not mix a show. This company hired me for years just to mix shows as that is my strong skill set.
What to do?
 
Re: Sound Provider Refusing Band Engineer?

John Chiara said:
I have a show coming up and the provider for the event...a former friend and employer... Has already instructed his crew at other events that I am not allowed near his gear or his crew members. It seems to be a personal thing with him and I have never done anything to harm his gear...obviously...and the last show I attended his crew chief asked me for any advice on the system and then in our personal conversation accused me of playing politics and threatening his job security... I was talking about mix position and sub array coverage...not sure what he wanted me to comment on. Wonder how to have the band deal with the upcoming show. When I am providing the bands show is the bands show, and I just babysit to protect my gear and help him do the best show possible, but would never tell a band hired engineer he could not mix a show. This company hired me for years just to mix shows as that is my strong skill set.
What to do?
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If your band has a rider that says they are providing an engineer, and the promoter agrees to that rider and hires the provider to satisfy the rider, then you get to mix. If the contract that the provider has with the promoter says they get to approve who drives their gear, then the situation gets murky. At that point it's a game of chicken - who blinks first - the band, or the provider.

Any chance of having a conversation with the former friend and trying to iron that out before showtime?
 
Re: Sound Provider Refusing Band Engineer?

I can't think of a single case where I was not allowed to mix. I can think of cases where the provider did everything possible to make things difficult and screw up what I was trying to do.

The strange thing is that it appears you have started to advance this show, and you are finding this out in advance. Given the strong negative feelings from the start, I have to wonder if you would really want the job. I would probably go to the band, and tell them what is happening. They either need to go to bat for you, get the promoter involved, or make due without you for one show.

As for the provider, if he continues to act in less than a professional manner, karma will catch up with him.
 
Re: Sound Provider Refusing Band Engineer?

TJ Cornish said:
If your band has a rider that says they are providing an engineer, and the promoter agrees to that rider and hires the provider to satisfy the rider, then you get to mix. If the contract that the provider has with the promoter says they get to approve who drives their gear, then the situation gets murky. At that point it's a game of chicken - who blinks first - the band, or the provider.

Any chance of having a conversation with the former friend and trying to iron that out before showtime?
Click to expand...

I wish, all rational conversation is refused.
 
Re: Sound Provider Refusing Band Engineer?

Jay Barracato said:
I can't think of a single case where I was not allowed to mix. I can think of cases where the provider did everything possible to make things difficult and screw up what I was trying to do.

The strange thing is that it appears you have started to advance this show, and you are finding this out in advance. Given the strong negative feelings from the start, I have to wonder if you would really want the job. I would probably go to the band, and tell them what is happening. They either need to go to bat for you, get the promoter involved, or make due without you for one show.

As for the provider, if he continues to act in less than a professional manner, karma will catch up with him.
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I want the band to stick up for me as this seems to be the only way to resolve this stupid impasse. I helped the guy start his company and he hired me for years and when I started my own company he flipped his lid and started this stupid practice of banning me from his shows. No controversial event what so ever but now this is an original band and I just finished mixing their album and they really need and want me at FOH. I have given up on Karma around here... The most ridiculous things happen at live shows...ie:..setting up the console at FOH...while also running monitors from FOH...on a case about 15" off the ground inside a tent where the engineer can't see the band or hear the system...and of course band members complainIng to me...you get the picture.
 
Re: Sound Provider Refusing Band Engineer?

Has this person specifically stated that they will not allow you to mix at this specific gig?

If not, show up with a friendly attitude and be ready to do the gig. If you are refused access by the provider, don't make it your problem - calmly take it to the band or the band's manager (if they have one). The band should address the issue with the promoter, not you. The promoter ultimately is the one with the $$$, who the provider will answer to. The promoter should understand that a band BE is standard stuff, and that the provider is simply causing unnecessary obstructions. The band will be motivated - they won't like the idea of paying you to sit around.....

You might just end up mixing the show without issue. You also might end up twiddling your thumbs backstage.

Regardless of what happens, at least if you show up you get paid.
 
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Re: Sound Provider Refusing Band Engineer?

That much drama sounds like there may be some history there.

If it's just one show, take a night off and chill... If this has larger commercial implications for your business and livelihood the two of you need to man up and work it out.

Of course this is easier said than done.

Identify any real transgressions or injuries and deal with them.

Good luck.

JR
 
Re: Sound Provider Refusing Band Engineer?

While I'm still much younger than anyone else who's commented, the theatrical world I work mostly in is all drama. The end all be all is definitely always who hired you, and what interests they have. If they really do need you, they'll stick up for you. If they don't, you leaving isn't that bad of a thing. If they need you but decide otherwise, they'll learn soon enough or pay the price.

In the end, the best thing to do is to take absolutely nothing the former friend will say personally. Nothing more aggravating than someone you just can't piss off when you have a grudge against them.
 
Re: Sound Provider Refusing Band Engineer?

Jay Barracato said:
I can't think of a single case where I was not allowed to mix. I can think of cases where the provider did everything possible to make things difficult and screw up what I was trying to do.

The strange thing is that it appears you have started to advance this show, and you are finding this out in advance. Given the strong negative feelings from the start, I have to wonder if you would really want the job. I would probably go to the band, and tell them what is happening. They either need to go to bat for you, get the promoter involved, or make due without you for one show.

As for the provider, if he continues to act in less than a professional manner, karma will catch up with him.
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+1

Alternative 1: I would sort it out with the band, they are hiring you, John, so they should have a word in this situation. The band should talk to the promoter about this, the promoter should talk to the provider about this.
The band could push you through this way, maybe at the cost of having a provider that is throwing sticks and stones at you to make your work difficult.

Alternative 2: get a sub for the job, make the band and promoter happy

Alternative 3: try to convince the promoter to have another provider as the one he took is not able to fulfill the rider

Alternative 4: Do nothing and try to sort it out on the job.

I would tend to Alternatives 1 or 2, Alternatives 3 and 4 are quite aggressive.
 
Re: Sound Provider Refusing Band Engineer?

Bennett Prescott said:
This does not happen outside JV, so your provider needs to get shitcanned IMHO.
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I agree. I have to work with people I dont like in this industry all the time. Regardless of past history this is childish and unprofessional.

I would talk to the promoter about seeing if he will hire another production company. If that worked hopefully he will see how his actions are costing him money.
 
Re: Sound Provider Refusing Band Engineer?

Doesn't sound like a fun situation to be in. Best to get this ironed out BEFORE showtime. It sounds like your previous boss is sour because you worked for him and then decided to go it your own and start a company that is competing with him. Some people find it very difficult to work WITH competition, even though it could be very beneficial for both of you if that were to happen.

Have you discussed this issue with the band yet? If they want YOU to be there to mix, you've got a lot more to stand on. They may not want to ruffle any feathers and just accept the fact that the production company doesn't want you there. Since you have a good working relationship with the band, it would be best to agree with their strategy versus going around them to the promoter and raising a fuss, as you will come off as representing the band if you do that.

If the band backs you up, but then the promoter doesn't, you could potentially cost the band the gig. Keep that in mind if you decide to make this a fight. If the promoter and band both back you, then they will either hire a different production company, or they will tell that company that you're allowed to do your work. If they keep the production company though, don't expect cooperation. It's going to be rough going for you if that happens.
 
Re: Sound Provider Refusing Band Engineer?

TJ Cornish said:
If your band has a rider that says they are providing an engineer, and the promoter agrees to that rider and hires the provider to satisfy the rider, then you get to mix. If the contract that the provider has with the promoter says they get to approve who drives their gear, then the situation gets murky. At that point it's a game of chicken - who blinks first - the band, or the provider.
Click to expand...

Also, This. If the bands agreement says they have their own engineer, then you mix. Otherwise they are in breach of contract and the promoter should have no problem bringing out either a different production company OR laying down the law. Again this is such a childish situation that its not even funny. Just a PITA.
 
Re: Sound Provider Refusing Band Engineer?

I have a venue where the in-house program manager really does not like me. I had done shows in that venue for years before she came on staff, but I prefer not to bother with shows there any longer as it is a very difficult venue acoustically and her virulent attitude has been the "last straw". But if someone hires me to provide sound or record there, I'll still consider it for the client.

One of the last things I did there (a recording where someone else was providing PA), she came down and told me I had to leave the building or she'd call the cops. I told her to go ahead and call as it was a public space and I was hired to work there. It was so cool when the cop who responded lives on my block and knows me from the neighborhood and for the sound work I do for his church. She was taken aside and given a polite "cease and desist".

No problem.
 
Re: Sound Provider Refusing Band Engineer?

Dick Rees said:
I have a venue where the in-house program manager really does not like me. I had done shows in that venue for years before she came on staff, but I prefer not to bother with shows there any longer as it is a very difficult venue acoustically and her virulent attitude has been the "last straw". But if someone hires me to provide sound or record there, I'll still consider it for the client.

One of the last things I did there (a recording where someone else was providing PA), she came down and told me I had to leave the building or she'd call the cops. I told her to go ahead and call as it was a public space and I was hired to work there. It was so cool when the cop who responded lives on my block and knows me from the neighborhood and for the sound work I do for his church. She was taken aside and given a polite "cease and desist".

No problem.
Click to expand...

You didn't bring your accordion, did you?
 
Re: Sound Provider Refusing Band Engineer?

TJ Cornish said:
You didn't bring your accordion, did you?
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Not that time, but I'd performed there at various events since they opened and for about 30 years until I "retired" from active commercial performance. My relationship with them at the present time is "let them suck out loud".
 
Re: Sound Provider Refusing Band Engineer?

Dick Rees said:
One of the last things I did there (a recording where someone else was providing PA), she came down and told me I had to leave the building or she'd call the cops. I told her to go ahead and call as it was a public space and I was hired to work there. It was so cool when the cop who responded lives on my block and knows me from the neighborhood and for the sound work I do for his church. She was taken aside and given a polite "cease and desist".

No problem.
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Dick, this is what I would like to happen and just settle this for good. It is obviously a personal that I don't get as I never did anything but help this guy and get him jobs when he was starting out. Last outdoor show he emailed the municipality and told them I was not allowed near his equipment...set up in a public parking lot! I told the municipality to tell him to get a restraining order.
 
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