Actually MIXING on a tablet/ipad

john lutz

john lutz

Freshman
Jan 17, 2011
101
0
16
near Grand Rapids michigan
Looking for reports on what it's like to mix a band completely without physical faders for a dedicated sound man – not just for a mix from stage situation, which I think tend to be more set it and go.

Trying to decide between a digital mixer with faders plus wireless option vs. a rack mount type that runs wireless/wired on a tablet/laptop only. This is for typical bar band gigs but that don't suck too bad.
 
Re: Actually MIXING on a tablet/ipad

Once soundcheck is done, I don't mind it much. When I want to jump between channels quickly changing settings having the desk is far better.

I like a tablet for listening to wedge mixes, or for adjusting DCA levels during a show, but I don't like actually setting up the channel processing on it, save for a tweak here and there.

I'm using an X201T to control the GLD PC editor.

Chris
 
Re: Actually MIXING on a tablet/ipad

Three experiences.
First-gen Presonus (16.0.2.a d 24.4.2)
Requires a computer between iPad and mixer to work. Also requires user to supply WAP/router. Interface issues are less than perfectly sorted, IMO. I do like the surface despite no motorized faders. Everyting is there with little futzing or layer hunting. Metering is absolutely the best. iPad App is mature, complete, many detail channel functions require rotation from landscape to portrait to operate. Makes a lot of sense, really. Great if your hands are empty. If the iPad has to live on a table or stand, maybe not so much so. Requires one to learn surface and app - really learning two separate products. Had one since 2011 - coming back to it last weekend after nearly a year, it was firmly in my head. No searching. (though the Presonus computer SW, Universal Control, refused to talk to the mixer. Probably had a patch I did not install when I went to Yosemite on the MAC.) My fault, but does highlight the need to keep all the SW pieces in-sync.

A&H QU16. Nice format, good, motorized faders. App is also mature, if not complete. No computer needed, though it does require the user supply WAP/router. Again, surface and app interface are different, requires learning both. Have had one for a couple months now, still not perfectly at home, but all the tools are there to make a good mix. Headamps are settable/recallable in a scene and set via iPad. Not as expandable as a x32 Rack or Presonus rack. (rant - in their efforts to be unique/different/better/clearer/whatever... than other mixers, they have named the "solo" or "cue" or whatever the "PAFL" button. The confusion on the surface, iPad and documentation is immense (IMO) that causes whether the PAFL button is in PFL/AFL - whether it is being used as a noun, a verb or whatever is completely FUBAR). Then there's the PAFL Assign button... /EndRant)

QSC Touchmix 16 - I've really gotten to like this one since New Year's - I chose it for our cafe' for ease. I've done about 30 gigs on it so far. There is no "surface" - just a screen about the size of a 7" iPad, and a couple hard buttons. What I like about this is if you mix on the mixer, you're also learning the app. No cross-referencing the app vs surface in your mind. It is small, but with enough heft. One never has to worry if the iPad is charged or not. Not as expandable as a x32 rack or the presonus rack. What you buy is all there is. No expansion. No stage box. No MADI. No DANTE. In my opinion, is has not been dummed down - it has almost everything my QU16 has (in sone features, more). It creates its own WiFi network - no WAP/Router necessary. With the version 2 SW, one can integrate it into a standard WAP/router and/or hard wired, run multiple IOS devices, security hierarchy.

Needless to say, since the iPad app is virtually identical to the screen on the mixer, it encourages one to mix on the iPad. Gone is the "excuse" I use to stay at the mixer because I like the feel of faders - since there aren't any... The app is responsive and well thought out (not better or worse than Presonus or A&H) with everything but the channel gains available. There is a "quasi gain" on the cannel setup that allows trim of +/- 12 db.

I mix all 3 on a gen 3 iPad (first gen w/Retina display) and all the apps work pretty well. (still like faders). We also bought a new iPad Air II to go with the QSC Touchmix, and I can say the newer technology brings a bit more snap to the QSC app, and is much better at focusing the actual point of touch on the screen.

Unfortunately, iPads are expensive - I bought an iPad Air II (latest tech, no Cellular, 16gb) from Apple with a case and Apple Care - total was ~$700. Add that as an obligatory cost to the rack mixers (unless something is already in the inventory).

frank
 
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Re: Actually MIXING on a tablet/ipad

Love it! Been doing it for about 5 years now. First with Presonus mixers and now with Midas M32/Behringer X32 mixers. I use 3 iPads which gives me access to 24 channels or whatever I need all at the same time and the tap of an image on the screen. And since I use Waves, I always have a laptop at my desk running a remote desktop session into a Mac Mini sitting in my rack. I can run another session of their edit program on that just in case in need a 4th screen or to let me run an RTA.

In fact, I'm considering purchasing a 27" touch screen PC and doing away with all of he iPads.

Art
 
Re: Actually MIXING on a tablet/ipad

I've been doing quite a few shows lately exclusively mixing via iPad on X32 Rack and similar. It is slow to get around on but once the show is actually running it's great. I wouldn't want it for a festival style gig though. You'll get quick at it after a while to be able to tweak FX, tap tempo etc on the fly. I rely heavily on the DCA's - it's pretty much critical to make sure you assign everything there intelligently, especially if you have cues to deal with etc - for instance the one show I'm doing regularly is entirely sequenced and has video clips and other changes etc that need a lot of level change and mute coordination. It's do-able, but you need to be fairly well organized.

Would I rather use a desk? You bet. I could drag my 48ch analog desk, a snake, and a couple racks of outboard out to that gig if I really wanted to. A big analog desk with great outboard will always be the most fun to actually mix on for me, but the convenience factor usually trumps that. I'm sick of lugging that sort of stuff around.

For the record, I have had no stability issues mixing from the iPad, though my experience is mostly with X32-Mix. Make sure you use a good wireless router, and lock it down - change to a non-obvious SSID, hide the SSID from broadcasting, use MAC filtering, disable 2.4Ghz (if your router supports dual band/5Ghz), etc. I recommend using DD-WRT firmware if your router supports it, it tends to be far superior in both features and reliability in my experience.
 
Re: Actually MIXING on a tablet/ipad

Art Nadelman said:
since I use Waves...
Click to expand...

I assume you mean Waves Multirack? How have you found the latency? I've tried it before and found it was ok for verbs, delays etc but not for things like compressors. Do you do any delay management on the console at all to compensate?

Very curious if you've got it to work reliably without noticeable latency. Plugs like the C6 would be a lot of fun.
 
Re: Actually MIXING on a tablet/ipad

Been on an iPad/X32R for over a year. New Years Eve I chose the iPad over the console. Putting a new club install in next month. FOH will be a podium on casters that can be anywhere in the room for 1-3 iPads. I did small festivals last summer with the same setup. Battery pack and Wireless In Ears complete the setup. I would like a full analog setup...I have a few...don't want to move them and usually no space in a useful position. And I MIX...lots of fader moves, FX changes, etc. Best thing for me is, the ipad is infinitely easier to SEE than the console.
 
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Re: Actually MIXING on a tablet/ipad

Hello

X32R and iPad - what a joy - when the local drunk gets yelling next to you spilling his beer, it is so easy to step aside - ability to wander around the room just to make sure - requires "intelligent DCA-grouping" as Jeff mentioned - superior at monitor setup - visibility in dark room.

- I use iPad 2 wifi and iPad mini wifi - both available for under 200.- € - one is charging and the other is in use - plus old IBM thinkpad ( 40.- € ) sitting on rack just for backup - never needed so far

- if B only would implement the use of assignable encoders and switches as in X32 - since they DO WORK when controlling them with PC
 
Re: Actually MIXING on a tablet/ipad

X32R and Mixing Station on various android devices here. So far I've absolutely loved it and haven't had any issues. I've been carrying a Lenovo L530 as backup (with a wired connection), never actually needed it.
I recently ordered an HP Slate 21 Pro for when I want more than 16 faders comfortably at once and when there's the possibility of a dedicated corner for it.

It's nice that there's more choice now when it comes to affordable rack mixers (X32R, Mackie DL32R, the Presonus RM-models), but since none have official android remotes and only Behringer uses an open standard, it really is a no-brainer for me.
 
Re: Actually MIXING on a tablet/ipad

Jeff Babcock said:
I assume you mean Waves Multirack? How have you found the latency? I've tried it before and found it was ok for verbs, delays etc but not for things like compressors. Do you do any delay management on the console at all to compensate?

Very curious if you've got it to work reliably without noticeable latency. Plugs like the C6 would be a lot of fun.
Click to expand...

I have only run into a few instances where I had a problem with (yes) Waves Multirack and latency such as GTR. But since then, I have been very diligent in selecting only those FX that have extremely low or zero latency. I rely on C6 for a number of my channels (vocals, guitars) to ensure I get the sound I'm looking for.

Art
 
Re: Actually MIXING on a tablet/ipad

john lutz said:
Thanks all for the reports - very helpful info.
Click to expand...
I like tablet and Surface mixing live. Still very fond of hard faders that move. Still cooler to show people than preset recalls on a tablet.

But I like mixing on touch screens so much that I jumped in with both panels, so to speak.
X32SurfaceFront_zps8d3d38a7[1].jpg
 
Re: Actually MIXING on a tablet/ipad

There are advantages to iPad mixing, for sure. The small footprint is great. Being able to use multiple iPads to emulate a larger console is pretty sweet.

However, there are a couple of major disadvantages.

1. Relying on WIFI is a dangerous situation. WIFi is easily disrupted. I had a scenario with an iPad 2. Everything was set and working great, then someone turned on some wireless headphones. Well, the headphones took out WIFI nearly completely making the iPad all but useless. Luckily, I had a newer iPad available that could use 5GHz WIFI and the show could go on.

2. The iPad does not offer tactical feedback. You need to be able to look at the iPad to know what you're doing. Yeah, once your fingers are in place, you can sort of manipulate it, but if your finger slides to the wrong spot on the pad, you could make unexpected changes. With a physical console, it's pretty easy to feel your way around and get to stuff quickly if necessary.
 
Re: Actually MIXING on a tablet/ipad

For the past couple years I have been mainly mixing monitors and FOH on an iPad. Just recently I have been back at the desk and it feels great. I definitely developed some bad habits while in IPad world and I'm sure my mixes may have suffered some. It's a great tool to have, but IMO not the way of the future like many are saying.
 
Re: Actually MIXING on a tablet/ipad

For bands and music, maybe. For theatre with multiple wireless mics, and line-by-line mixing, no way. I use my iPad for EQ and for setting monitors, but otherwise you can pry those real faders away from my cold dead fingers while my cold dead eyes are still fixed on the stage.
 
Re: Actually MIXING on a tablet/ipad

Simon Eves said:
For bands and music, maybe. For theatre with multiple wireless mics, and line-by-line mixing, no way. I use my iPad for EQ and for setting monitors, but otherwise you can pry those real faders away from my cold dead fingers while my cold dead eyes are still fixed on the stage.
Click to expand...

Cold dead eyes? Cold dead fingers? Theatre and alcohol will do that... and no, apparently the 2 cannot be separated... /cynical snarkism
 
Re: Actually MIXING on a tablet/ipad

john lutz said:
Looking for reports on what it's like to mix a band completely without physical faders for a dedicated sound man – not just for a mix from stage situation, which I think tend to be more set it and go.

Trying to decide between a digital mixer with faders plus wireless option vs. a rack mount type that runs wireless/wired on a tablet/laptop only. This is for typical bar band gigs but that don't suck too bad.
Click to expand...

[h=2]To the inquiry of what it is like mixing a band without faders, actually mixing on a tablet/iPad :[/h]LOVE IT. LIBERATING. LIFE ALTERING. No exaggeration. My first gig out in 01/12 with a remote desk/ device (1642SL) was a Moonwalk moment. Since then aprx. 90% of my time mixing live music performance week in & out is via a tablet UI( iOS & Android ), the majority of which is on the X32 line, peppered in with a wee bit of the DL1608 and 1642SL.
I offer examples of other related events for consideration of a similar impact, personally and universally; mylar drum heads , solid body guitars, Beatles & George Martin, MTR, Rhodes EP, DX7 synth, personal computers, audio DSP, Digidesign SoundTools/ProTools, cd/r/rw recorders, touchscreens, smart phones, Al Gore & the Internet, are to name some of the more memorable having altered the landscape in a most profound and lasting way, IMHO.

More to the point of physical faders or not, lets be clear that zero of these are passing audio, rather acting as mere encoders. Nonetheless, always nice to have WHEN they might be needed and /or desired by those who may be unfamiliar or uncomfortable with a remote UI, or in the event of wired or wireless connectivity difficulties of remote devices.

The pool of fader equipped digital desks is larger to choose from vs. rack units and size/space of desk candidates are an obvious consideration be it for install or portable use.
The flip side is real estate and weights savings with less moving parts for the racks. Additionally, the StageBox variety of digital mixers should be considered as part of the faderless genre, e.g. Behringer X-Air and Soundcraft Ui series.

Wired/wireless peripherals, PC`s, laptops, tablets, touchscreens, wifi AP/routers are wide and varied from which to choose from and choices may be dictated by which manufacturer platform is chosen and implemented. Here as well you may find varied and fervent end user preferences for not just mixer X,Y or Z but the choice of UI control as well.

It is with the UI of the apps that I feel really make a huge distinction between platforms. All are available to download and fiddle about with (exception A&H iLive MixPad) to assist in a general assessment and comparison, bearing in mind minimum device requirements.
And to dive deeper, are the differences of the DSP of EQ and FX. There is a difference. Play with the apps and one can see the degree of PEQ frequency points varies between platforms. FX quality differences are audibly and significantly obvious between brands.

Rack/stagebox units should be given careful consideration of the corresponding remote apps/software since this will likely be the primary means of control.

Aside from the software considerations are the requirements and/or desires of mic-pres, hardware in/outs & routing provisions, computer/D2D recording, brand reputation/preference and as always, dinero $.

If possible, find someone, somewhere, somehow to get up close and personal with some rigs in a real world situation. More to your consideration, is it doable, mixing sans fadercaps? Absolutely.
Look MA, NO FADERS !For a bar band, no problemo. For theatre, now that is a wholly different question for another thread.

Which, if ever, when ever, one may choose, a word of wisdom,..... redundancy......or back-up plans. Old school rules, weakest link in the chain & Murphy still applies, and with so many processes and devices essentially reduced down to one device, plan for success by preparing for the unexpected. In addition, I am of the here and now variant, not one to buy into the promises or in-hope of to come in version 99.9. Translation: do the best to know what one is buying into at the feature set, and can make use of such with any future revisions to be considered X-Mas gifts in July.

In January 2012 there were essentially only two affordable remote controllable live performance digital audio mixing platforms, the Presonus SL and Mackie DL series. What a difference three years has brought in choice of platform and price for the consumer/ end-user, with likely more to come. Game-changing. Cheers
 
Re: Actually MIXING on a tablet/ipad

Brian jojade said:
1. Relying on WIFI is a dangerous situation. WIFi is easily disrupted. I had a scenario with an iPad 2. Everything was set and working great, then someone turned on some wireless headphones. Well, the headphones took out WIFI nearly completely making the iPad all but useless. Luckily, I had a newer iPad available that could use 5GHz WIFI and the show could go on.
Click to expand...
Umm... - my iPad 2's work just fine on 5 GHz, dunno what was wrong with yours?
 
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