Any EV DELTAMAX experts around? Need some advice;-)

C

Christian Boche

Junior
May 18, 2012
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I inherit some EV Deltamax Clones + amprack/controllers from someone, who is going out of buisness. Lots of gear, that I got for free but that needs some work to make it run again.
There are four DML1152 Clones with the original speakers (DH1a/DL15X/HP64 horn), EP4 connectors and tons of aeroquip flyware on it. Three deltas are working, one is completly dead.
The amprack consists of two Crest 6001 (one with one dead channel) and two original analog monocontrollers. So I put a little work into the gear in the last days. Put new foam on the speaker grills on two of the DML1152
I bought one Chinese aftermarket diaphragma for the DH1 and reconed the DL15x. Just build in the these parts an the dead delta is back to live:-)

Same with the dead channel of the 6001. The gear was stored unused in a very humid place, lot's of corrosion and oxidation (just see the rack screws on the amprack picture!). The old Crest amps are known for bad ribbon cabels due to oxidation. So I opened the amp, cleaned it... and now It's working again:-)

I mixed only a few show in the past on deltas, so I'm not sure, what they are capable of. In addition, the Deltas seems to go very low and the controller is going into gain reduction quite fast. I connected an iPod classic directly to the controller and cranked it all the way up. The output limiter is flashing and the -3dB gain reduction is also on. The crest 6001 is just showing a flashing "signal" LED. Is this the normal gain stage of the setup? The sense cabeling is connected and everything seems to be right. I'm not "that" impressed with the overall output...maybe there is something I should double check? Soundwise I'm surprised in a good way, if you consider how old this gear is.

In addition, if I would add some subwoofers and choose a X-over frequenzy of 100-120Hz, that the 15" woofer of the delta has not to go so low, would this affect the overall controller work?
What is good ratio "DML1152 vs. Subwoofers" and how many pax are doable with four DML1152 + subs at a rough estimate (basic Top40 music)?

Please enlight me:-)
Christian


IMG_1452.JPGIMG_1453.JPGIMG_1455.JPG
 
Re: Any EV DELTAMAX experts around? Need some advice;-)

Haven't heard these for a while, from what I remember they are not stupidly loud, but decent for something like a 300 cap venue.

If the controllers seem to be limiting at too low a level, it is probably the amp limit level that is set too low ( maybe the previous owner blew one of the speakers and turned the limiters down as a precaution)

Edit: With subs added, you are much less likely to see the excursion limiter flashing often, so I would say that adding subs would affect the controller work.
EV used to add a sizeable bass boost (8-10 dB) in some of their controllers and then attempt to save the woofers by incorporating excursion limiting, and I don't think this was always 100% effective, because I seem to have seen some of these with blown woofers.
 
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Re: Any EV DELTAMAX experts around? Need some advice;-)

Christian Boche said:
I mixed only a few show in the past on deltas, so I'm not sure, what they are capable of. In addition, the Deltas seems to go very low and the controller is going into gain reduction quite fast. I connected an iPod classic directly to the controller and cranked it all the way up. The output limiter is flashing and the -3dB gain reduction is also on. The crest 6001 is just showing a flashing "signal" LED. Is this the normal gain stage of the setup? The sense cabeling is connected and everything seems to be right. I'm not "that" impressed with the overall output...maybe there is something I should double check? Soundwise I'm surprised in a good way, if you consider how old this gear is.

In addition, if I would add some subwoofers and choose a X-over frequenzy of 100-120Hz, that the 15" woofer of the delta has not to go so low, would this affect the overall controller work?
What is good ratio "DML1152 vs. Subwoofers" and how many pax are doable with four DML1152 + subs at a rough estimate (basic Top40 music)?
Click to expand...
Christian,

What a score!

Lost my post looking at the controller picture again, doh.

The 1152 will get loud, rated for 126 dB continuous. They are processed to roll off at 50 Hz.
If your top 40 is from the 1970's and 1980's, four would do O.K. without subs in clubs to 500 capacity.

To keep up with the 1152s at a 100 Hz crossover, you probably could use as much as eight 18", and probably do 1000 seats if you are not trying to hurt people's hearing. When you add subs, you may just want to run the "High" output to the controller, as it has built in EQ and delay and is set up well to protect the speakers when calibrated correctly, which yours is not.

If you are of the opinion that "if it is too loud, you are too old" subtract 3 dB from my coverage capacity :^).

The speakers should take pretty much all the 6001s are capable of, either the controller outputs are adjusted too low or the amp sensitivity is set too low.
If the 6001 does not have a sensitivity switch, the controller settings are way off.

There are adjustment screws behind the removable front panel, they set amplifier limit and low and high output level. The limiters go from a 2/1 to a 20/1 ratio, and are frequency and excursion dependent, with the sensor cabling providing a feedback loop.
Make sure all the sense wires are cleaned up, though since it limits early they probably are not the problem.

There is a switch that can be set to indicate amplifier clipping or controller limiting (limit position).
The markings around the Amplifier Calibration control show the approximate wattage to the drivers.

Setting up the limiters is an 11 step process (with four sub notes..) in the Deltamax owners manual, but basically transient peaks should still be able to just clip the amp.

If you can't find the manual online, I can scan the relevant page.


Art
 
Re: Any EV DELTAMAX experts around? Need some advice;-)

To expand on what the others have mentioned:

The best thing I ever did for my Deltamax system was throwing away those analog controllers and replacing them with digital crossovers. The DX34 is what we used way back then, but and good processor available these days will do. Here's a link to a PDF of starting parameters supplied by EV when many of us started switching to the DX34: http://pdf.textfiles.com/manuals/ST... Preset/Dx38 Presets - DML-1122, DML-2181.PDF

I did quite a few shows with 2 1152 per side on top of a single EV MTL-4 (4 18"). Seemed to balance fairly well. I used a pull-over cover built to fit the pair of 1152 as a riser between the sub and tops. Could cover 500 to 1500 outside, depending upon the music genre.

Weight and top-heaviness were the only real problems with these cabinets.

There are still spec sheets and manuals available online via your favorite search engine.
 
Re: Any EV DELTAMAX experts around? Need some advice;-)

Awesome information - thank you guys!
BTW: I'm an idiot:-) I did not realize, that there are adjustable pots under the faceplate.:blush: Just found the manual with the "11point" setup procedur for the gain structure. I don't know if I understand it correctly. I see, that you turn up the amp calibaration control clockwise till the amp starts to clip. So I thought, "ok...this will be the limiter threshold" but #11 says: "Return the LF and HF output level controls to their center detent postion, and reset the cal switch to the "limit" position (out)." ...well, to be honest...I don't get it. Does this step doesen't lower the limiter thresholdback to center/0 ??? Also, the suggested power rating for the DH1 HF driver is way lower, than for the 15" driver...but If I adjust the limiter according to the clip LED on the Crest, the DH1 will get to much power I guess. Can someone help me out on this one? The crest has an input sensitivity of 1.2V btw.

I'm really getting second thoughts on going with an digital controller instead. I will use subwoofers anyway, and could use a 2in6 controller for the whole setup. Thanks Milt for the parameters btw!
I will investigate further tomorrow. Thanks four your help!

The original settings on my controllers:

IMG_1456.JPG
 
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Re: Any EV DELTAMAX experts around? Need some advice;-)

Christian Boche said:
Does this step doesen't lower the limiter thresholdback to center/0 ??? Also, the suggested power rating for the DH1 HF driver is way lower, than for the 15" driver...but If I adjust the limiter according to the clip LED on the Crest, the DH1 will get to much power I guess. Can someone help me out on this one?
Click to expand...

You turn the output levels (on the left) up to achieve clipping, then you turn the sense level (on the right) down to calibrate the sense cirquitry so that the clipping light on the controller comes on. You don't touch the pots on the right after this, but you return the output levels on the left to their normal setting. As long as the clipping voltage at the amp output is detected, it doesn't matter what the output level of the controller is, as the clip limiter senses the output voltage of the amp and limits the output of the controller.

The reason for depressing the calibrating button is to turn off the speaker protection limiting, to allow the levels to reach amp limiting, and doesn't really affect the calibration process beyond that (ie. if you have big amps, the speaker protection will not allow you to reach amp clipping voltages for long enough to enable you to do the calibration) Obviously, calibrating with speakers connected might spell disaster.
The output levels should be the same for both low and high if the amp gains are the same, if the amps are different, like when you use a smaller amp for the high, the high might need to be turned up or the low turned down. However, I think the Crest has exactly the gain that the EV controller wants, so 0dB on the outs should be right.

The relative levels between the high and low are taken care of in the crossover, there is a 10 dB or thereabouts difference at the crossover frequency, so the high doesn't get too hot even though the amp rating is too high. Of course, there is no point in allowing the high amp to go to clipping, so the clip level could just as well be left at a lowish setting around 150 watts or lower. The low frequency limiter seems a bit low to me, the Crest should be able to deliver at least 600 watts into a 4 ohm load, giving a 300 watt setting at the controller(driving two speakers from each amp output), so I guess the previous owner has played it safe to protect the speakers. As I often keeps going on about blown EV speakers, such a cautious approach makes sense to me (EV don't blow because of bad quality or too high rating, but because they can be pushed too hard without giving much warning in terms of sound quality)
 
Re: Any EV DELTAMAX experts around? Need some advice;-)

Thanks Per, now it makes perfect sense to me!
I'm off for happy calibrating:-)

BTW: I double your impression about EV speakers. In addtion some EV speakers just die in cause of corrosion. The transition between the wire and the coil corrodes and the speaker is dead...all my experiments with fixing the transition failed. So in the past, I reconed lots of EV speakers. All speaker have their own oddities. By now lot's of my RCF L18P300 are dying due to crumbling ribbings. There are between 9-6 years old, seems that their normal lifespan is done...
 
Re: Any EV DELTAMAX experts around? Need some advice;-)

Hey Christian,

Remember that those old Crest Audio Pro xx01 series amplifiers are probably Pin 3 hot.

I'm not sure how much of a difference it makes to that particular processor, but having your sense input out of polarity with the output might cause issues... maybe... I don't know.
 
Re: Any EV DELTAMAX experts around? Need some advice;-)

You have to set the amps up for the proper gain. Take a .5Volt 1KHz sine way and apply it to the input. Turn the amp up until the output measures 20 volts. That's a 32dB gain. Also set the amp limiters on the front of the controllers to keep the amps from clipping. Those two adjustments will maximize your output but the 6001 might be too small for these speakers (not sure what they can do). I could be wrong. We used MA2400s on the tops, and used MA5000 on the 2181 subs. I personally wouldn't use bootleg diaphragms. Genuine EV parts were very high quality and warranted.

Christian Boche said:
I inherit some EV Deltamax Clones + amprack/controllers from someone, who is going out of buisness. Lots of gear, that I got for free but that needs some work to make it run again.
There are four DML1152 Clones with the original speakers (DH1a/DL15X/HP64 horn), EP4 connectors and tons of aeroquip flyware on it. Three deltas are working, one is completly dead.
The amprack consists of two Crest 6001 (one with one dead channel) and two original analog monocontrollers. So I put a little work into the gear in the last days. Put new foam on the speaker grills on two of the DML1152
I bought one Chinese aftermarket diaphragma for the DH1 and reconed the DL15x. Just build in the these parts an the dead delta is back to live:-)

Same with the dead channel of the 6001. The gear was stored unused in a very humid place, lot's of corrosion and oxidation (just see the rack screws on the amprack picture!). The old Crest amps are known for bad ribbon cabels due to oxidation. So I opened the amp, cleaned it... and now It's working again:-)

I mixed only a few show in the past on deltas, so I'm not sure, what they are capable of. In addition, the Deltas seems to go very low and the controller is going into gain reduction quite fast. I connected an iPod classic directly to the controller and cranked it all the way up. The output limiter is flashing and the -3dB gain reduction is also on. The crest 6001 is just showing a flashing "signal" LED. Is this the normal gain stage of the setup? The sense cabeling is connected and everything seems to be right. I'm not "that" impressed with the overall output...maybe there is something I should double check? Soundwise I'm surprised in a good way, if you consider how old this gear is.

In addition, if I would add some subwoofers and choose a X-over frequenzy of 100-120Hz, that the 15" woofer of the delta has not to go so low, would this affect the overall controller work?
What is good ratio "DML1152 vs. Subwoofers" and how many pax are doable with four DML1152 + subs at a rough estimate (basic Top40 music)?

Please enlight me:-)
Christian


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