Combining many devices on one network

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kristianjohnsen

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Mar 13, 2011
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Lillehammer, Norway
www.partyfabrikken.no
Provided one is willing to put all one's bets on one horse: How feasible is it to run several computers at FOH, connected to several types of gear close to stage, over one network cable between the two locations?

Many companies are starting to use more and more gear that has RJ45 ports for one reason or another (several simultaneous brands of wireless mics and IEMs, Dante, DMX, speaker/amp monitoring, Dolby Lake control, etc, you name it). How do most people interconnect these devices?

Is it utopia to have a RJ45 port in every rack and just patch them all into a central hub close to stage, run one CAT-cable to FOH and do the same there?
 
Re: Combining many devices on one network

It's very doable if everything follows network standards, although depending on what the devices are, you may want to start looking at VLANs and switches that support them. But that's a different world than "plug everything in and it works"
 
Re: Combining many devices on one network

First it is important to understand that just because it has an RJ45 does not mean it is a TCP/IP computer network type connection. Personally I have seen that connector (and variants of it) used as network, several serial data configurations, power supply, audio, contact closure, and a few combination there of. I have even seen a laptop burned up when some one plunged a serial with power combo into the network port.


Even if it is a TCP/IP connection there may be reasons not to share it with other devices. Art-net and some digital snake data streams come to mind. A network switch that can understand vlans can help but may be more expensive than just running a separate network cable.


Having said all that, if the data types are compatible and the total bandwidth is not too high I would be fine combining all my show data on one network.
 
Re: Combining many devices on one network

In short, this is totally possible.

The event industry is practically in the stone age when it comes to data transmission compared to other industry sectors (Broadcast, for one) and the communications industry as a whole.

I, as part of the work I do with large scale communications systems, often provide IP infrastructure for Audio, Video and other data transmissions. You do need to think about the nature of the network traffic being combined, and consider redundancies where necessary, but it can be done cheaply.

For control data (like monitoring radio mics, remoting into consoles, etc..) which is not mission-critical, combining it with a sensible IP and subnetting scheme is simple and easy.

If you are also considering combining mission critical data streams (like art net, Dante, etc..) then you need to be more careful.

However, web-managed switches that support VLANing are crazy cheap these days. A pair can be had for less than the cost of 100m of decent quality cat5 cable on a drum.
 
Re: Combining many devices on one network

Tom Bourke said:
First it is important to understand that just because it has an RJ45 does not mean it is a TCP/IP computer network type connection. Personally I have seen that connector (and variants of it) used as network, several serial data configurations, power supply, audio, contact closure, and a few combination there of. I have even seen a laptop burned up when some one plunged a serial with power combo into the network port.


Even if it is a TCP/IP connection there may be reasons not to share it with other devices. Art-net and some digital snake data streams come to mind. A network switch that can understand vlans can help but may be more expensive than just running a separate network cable.


Having said all that, if the data types are compatible and the total bandwidth is not too high I would be fine combining all my show data on one network.
Click to expand...

I'm a network dummy, but not dumb :) I promise to keep DC, audio and GPI out of the network switches.

Seriously, though, I was referring to stuff like putting Sennheiser IEM+mics, Shure IEMs + mics, and network control of, say, a Dolby Lake, all on one network and controlling them all over just one cable from FOH.
 
Re: Combining many devices on one network

Tom Bourke said:
Even if it is a TCP/IP connection there may be reasons not to share it with other devices. Art-net and some digital snake data streams come to mind. A network switch that can understand vlans can help but may be more expensive than just running a separate network cable.
Click to expand...

This wouldn't be due to the broadcast nature of most Art-net traffic, would it?
(The more I learn about Art-net, the more I dislike that protocol)
 
Re: Combining many devices on one network

Rob Timmerman said:
This wouldn't be due to the broadcast nature of most Art-net traffic, would it?
(The more I learn about Art-net, the more I dislike that protocol)
Click to expand...
That is part of it. Some hubs and switches do not play well with it. I would NEVER plug it into a network that was not prepared for it. However if it was the right solution to a problem I would use it. It is important to understand what kind of data and how it is transmitted when deciding on a network topology. It is also important to know that not all network equipment is created equal. If all you want to do is plug a bunch of units that each has a web gui for setup then that is easy. If your sending real-time show critical data (such as audio or video) then you need to be much more careful.
 
Re: Combining many devices on one network

Tom Bourke said:
That is part of it. Some hubs and switches do not play well with it. I would NEVER plug it into a network that was not prepared for it. However if it was the right solution to a problem I would use it. It is important to understand what kind of data and how it is transmitted when deciding on a network topology. It is also important to know that not all network equipment is created equal. If all you want to do is plug a bunch of units that each has a web gui for setup then that is easy. If your sending real-time show critical data (such as audio or video) then you need to be much more careful.
Click to expand...

Is the general concensus that it makes sense to run one CAT cable for all control/monitor needs, and then handle audio, video, DMX seperately?
 
Re: Combining many devices on one network

kristianjohnsen said:
Is the general concensus that it makes sense to run one CAT cable for all control/monitor needs, and then handle audio, video, DMX seperately?
Click to expand...

If you're just starting out, this is the safe answer. Not that running everything on one network can't be done (many modern large stadiums run pretty much everything on one stadium-wide network backbone), but things get more complex when you need to start worrying about high and low priority traffic, redundancy, and the like.
 
Re: Combining many devices on one network

I run Dante and Lake Control on the one network without any problems. I have one gigabit switch at mix position and one gigabit switch at the amp rack. At the amp rack switch, PLM's connect directly and Contours daisy chain off one of the gigabit ports. The mix position switch has 2 x Yamaha Dante cards, a Cisco WAP and 2 laptops. I even pushed a firmware update to a Contour once during a show, without problems.

kristianjohnsen said:
Provided one is willing to put all one's bets on one horse: How feasible is it to run several computers at FOH, connected to several types of gear close to stage, over one network cable between the two locations?

Many companies are starting to use more and more gear that has RJ45 ports for one reason or another (several simultaneous brands of wireless mics and IEMs, Dante, DMX, speaker/amp monitoring, Dolby Lake control, etc, you name it). How do most people interconnect these devices?

Is it utopia to have a RJ45 port in every rack and just patch them all into a central hub close to stage, run one CAT-cable to FOH and do the same there?
Click to expand...
 
Re: Combining many devices on one network

It's possible. I carry a airport express and create small networks all the time using it as a AP, my laptop as DHCP server and and ipad for convenience. So far I've mixed Dante, Wireless workbench, Lake Controller, EAW Pilot and Internet on the same network without issues.
 
Re: Combining many devices on one network

Rob Timmerman said:
If you're just starting out, this is the safe answer. Not that running everything on one network can't be done (many modern large stadiums run pretty much everything on one stadium-wide network backbone), but things get more complex when you need to start worrying about high and low priority traffic, redundancy, and the like.
Click to expand...

Obviously, I'll be building my new system in small steps, but I already see one challenge: Our Shure ULX-D control ports are also the Dante ports, pretty much forcing audio and control to share one network?
 
Re: Combining many devices on one network

Helge Dr. Bentsen said:
It's possible. I carry a airport express and create small networks all the time using it as a AP, my laptop as DHCP server and and ipad for convenience. So far I've mixed Dante, Wireless workbench, Lake Controller, EAW Pilot and Internet on the same network without issues.
Click to expand...

Perhaps I'll be hiring some help from you?:)
 
Re: Combining many devices on one network

That is correct, just like cobranet and control on an I-tech port. It's not the end of the world. And a $100 managed switch has all functionality to go crazy with VLANS, or Unregistered Multicast Filtering.
 
Tom Bourke said:
That is part of it. Some hubs and switches do not play well with it. I would NEVER plug it into a network that was not prepared for it. However if it was the right solution to a problem I would use it. It is important to understand what kind of data and how it is transmitted when deciding on a network topology. It is also important to know that not all network equipment is created equal. If all you want to do is plug a bunch of units that each has a web gui for setup then that is easy. If your sending real-time show critical data (such as audio or video) then you need to be much more careful.
Click to expand...

Just be a nit picker, I have not seen a hub since 10mb Ethernet days. Everything since 100mb and up have been switches.

A gigabit network is a lot of capacity when you only have a small number of stations. As others have said, you need to know a bit about your network applications so you know if they are a bandwidth hog or not.

I run Dante at FOH with a WIFI router that has a 4 port gigabit switch in it. The four ports are
LS9 console at 100mb
Pair of Dante MY cards at 1000mb
MacBook Pro at 1000mb

The iPad connects at 5gHz with stage mix.
I record 32 channels direct out to Reaper on the MacBook



Sent from my iPad HD
 
Re: Combining many devices on one network

kristianjohnsen said:
Obviously, I'll be building my new system in small steps, but I already see one challenge: Our Shure ULX-D control ports are also the Dante ports, pretty much forcing audio and control to share one network?
Click to expand...

I'd have to double-check the docs, but I think that the ULXD D and Q receivers can use the primary port for Dante and the secondary port for control.
 
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