Compressor novice... need starting point for rock vocals

[Chuck Fry]

N00b here to SoundForums.net, and minimal experience actually running sound, but I've played in bar bands for years. I've also lurked for years and occasionally posted at PSW, so many of the names here are familiar.

I just bought my first compressor, a used dbx 166XL. Our rock band has up to five vocals but I have only this two-channel unit. Can I get away with using it as a bus insert?

I have zero experience with dialing in a compressor. What are some good settings to use as a starting point on a single voice? Our female lead has a lot of dynamic range - she can get pretty loud and operatic - but not much mic technique.

How about settings on a vocal bus?

Thanks for all suggestions, including "do a search" and "RTFM".

 

[Jay Barracato]

Compressors are a tool. What specific problem with your mix are you looking to fix?

I am not a fan of group compression especially on vocals as one performer can throw off the dynamics of the entire group.

I also don't like high levels of compression on the entire mix even though that is sneaking out of the recording industry and becoming more common live.

I would start with either your two main singers or the two that have the most inconsistent dynamics and insert your two channels of compression on those channels. For vocals I prefer a fast attack and fairly long release at about 2:1 and then roll down the threshold until the channel just stays lightly in compression. And then use the makeup gain to place the vocal where you want it in the mix.

 

[Chuck Fry]

Re: Compressor novice... need starting point for rock vocals

Compressors are a tool. What specific problem with your mix are you looking to fix?

The female vocalist can get very loud in her upper range, and doesn't have awareness of the mic technique to counter it. Another vocalist doesn't get very close to the mic - unless he's playing harmonica.

I am not a fan of group compression especially on vocals as one performer can throw off the dynamics of the entire group.

Good to be aware of, I'll keep an ear open for that.

I also don't like high levels of compression on the entire mix even though that is sneaking out of the recording industry and becoming more common live.

Not going to happen here.

I would start with either your two main singers or the two that have the most inconsistent dynamics and insert your two channels of compression on those channels. For vocals I prefer a fast attack and fairly long release at about 2:1 and then roll down the threshold until the channel just stays lightly in compression. And then use the makeup gain to place the vocal where you want it in the mix.

Thanks for the suggestion.

 

[Mike Brown]

Re: Compressor novice... need starting point for rock vocals

Hello!

I BE a similar kind of act that has an extremely powerful female vocal. The timbre of her voice also changes fairly drastically across her dynamic range. When we are not out on tour carrying equipment, I am occasionally stuck in rooms with limited amounts of dynamics processing, so I understand your situation.

If you don't understand the premise behind the typical compressor controls you cannot really use them effectively. If you are unfamiliar with what the typical knobs do (threshold, ratio, attack, release, makeup gain) then there are some great resources online that will give you a LOT of insight on how to use your ears to set the knobs.

I would also make myself aware of the different topologies of compressors... (VCA, Opto, Vari-mu etc) as this has a drastic effect on how they operate and what controls may be available to you and why.

Some basic compressor tips:

When you are using compressors or limiters you are typically trying to accomplish one of 2 things:

1. Create an effect. (e.g. Making drums sound larger than life, extending the sustain of a guitar or bass, etc)
2. Reigning in dynamic range (evening out the volume differences between words, etc)

For vocals, I tend to prefer ratios of 3:1 or 4:1. I generally look for around 5 dB of gain reduction on the loudest of passages as a GENERAL starting place. With the vocalist I work with, I can sometimes hit upwards of 15 dB of GR if I am not paying careful attention!

Start with a moderately fast attack and short release. Attack and release times are extremely important, and can really make the difference between tasteful dynamic range reduction and all out pumping and breathing. Start with the threshold all the way up and slowly bring it down until you see the desired amount of GR. Bring the makeup gain up to compensate for the loss of signal.

Compressors are not necessarily set it and forget it. Don't be afraid to adjust the compressor during the show, or ride the fader manually with your finger or both!

When I have limited numbers of compressors (like 2 channels) I typically set my console up like this:

I take my lead vocal and mult it to 2 busses. I compress one buss but not the other and during the show I ride the mixture of the compressed and un-compressed vocal. This is parallel compression.

I then take all my BGV and send them to another buss which has the other compressor on it. I personally like bus compression on vocals.

Often times for larger shows with more channels of compression or on digital consoles I may take 3 or 4 splits of my lead vocal and compress and EQ each differently to suit the different timbres of her dynamic range. I then ride these faders during the show to keep the vocal sound as prestine and clear as possible. I prefer the manually ride these, instead of using a traditional multiband compressor.

If you are runnings mons from FOH be very aware of your gain structure and where your inserts sit on the console. Are the inserts/compressors pre or post your monitor sends? etc etc etc

Good luck!

 

[Evan Kirkendall]

Re: Compressor novice... need starting point for rock vocals

Chuck,
Route all your vocals to a stereo group. Set your threshold at 0, ratio at 2:1, and attack/release on auto mode. Set the comp to over-easy as well. Leave your makeup gain at zero. Limiter all the way open too. Bam. Instant dynamic control that you'll never have to think twice about. A 2:1 ratio is very modest in the live world, and will be enough to take the edge off the loud peaks, but not enough to squish everything to all hell.



Evan

 

[Eric Cagle]

Re: Compressor novice... need starting point for rock vocals

+1 on what everyone else has said. All very good points. Nice details by Mike. The 166XL is a VCA unit if you did not already know that. Evan's settings are spot on for any of the DBX units I have ever used as a place to start, especially the 0db threshold and turning off the absolutely terrible sounding peak stop limiter. I am going to add a few things to it. If your singer is all over the map with dynamic range you will want to go to a 3:1 but no more than 4:1 ratio to smooth her out a little more. Less is better if it gets the job done but I have a feeling you will need at least 3:1. If you are gained in correctly the the gain reduction lights should occasionally just come on 1 or 2 lights in over-easy mode or just an occasional tickle in regular mode during normal singing. This is a guide whether using it on a vocal bus or as a channel insert. I don't usually use the over-easy for vocals but it is just a preference. When she starts to belt it out the compressor will grab on and you will see several db of reduction happening, hopefully never more than 4 or 5 LED's worth (8-10db...... again less is better but if she is all over the map you will see some reduction.)

Significant improvements can be made as you learn to use it and set your own attack and release times but but those settings are pretty bomb proof starting out. I would strongly suggest a compressor on the Bass guitar if you are taking a direct out and running it through the PA but it requires a different set up to sound good.

I much prefer the sound of the 1066 to the 166 series but you can use can use it as a main out insert to smooth out your mix if you are careful. In this case especially less is more so if you do it be very careful. Same settings, 2:1 is better on the ratio. Hit the contour button which will let a little more kik come through. Back the attack and release times to 9:00 as a place to start to let more of the drum transients come through. Depending on how you mix, only the drums should tickle the gain reduction lights during music only. Roll the threshold up a few db if you need to. The lead vocal should should trigger the gain reduction on her loudest parts 6 db or less. It will push the rest of the music down a little when the vocalist sings and smooth her out. This might not work if your singer is real inconsistant but again just a place to start if you have only one compressor. If you are running mono you could use one side for the mains and one side for the bass guitar if it is taken direct (as opposed to mic'd) through the PA. You could also use one side to tame the vocals a little bit if you didn't use it on bass. Just some suggestions of places to start.

The best way I know of to learn what your compressor will do is to record a few individual tracks and maybe a board tape, patch it in and listen through a decent set of head phones in your spare time. Read the manual and research a little bit. Turn the knobs and listen to what each does to the sound. Then ask some more questions. Good luck!

 

[Robert "VOiD" Caprio]

Re: Compressor novice... need starting point for rock vocals

One thing to try if you have to further tame a really dynamic singer you can always use a studio trick consisting of using two (or more!) comps in series. Route the output of the first compressor into the input of the second one. 2:1 ratio on both, moderately fast to medium attack (or slow in some cases) and a quick release, or use "auto" on those dbx units like Evan pointed out. Try to get the threshold to never squash things more than 3 or 4dB on either unit. Better to use two comps at lower levels of reduction than to use one and completely crush the signal. Anyone else out there using a similar technique?

 

[Rob Timmerman]

Re: Compressor novice... need starting point for rock vocals

One thing to try if you have to further tame a really dynamic singer you can always use a studio trick consisting of using two (or more!) comps in series. Route the output of the first compressor into the input of the second one. 2:1 ratio on both, moderately fast to medium attack (or slow in some cases) and a quick release, or use "auto" on those dbx units like Evan pointed out. Try to get the threshold to never squash things more than 3 or 4dB on either unit. Better to use two comps at lower levels of reduction than to use one and completely crush the signal. Anyone else out there using a similar technique?

I've done this on a 1066 with both the compressor and the limiter. Worked reasonably well in the smallish venue I was in.

 

[Eric Cagle]

Re: Compressor novice... need starting point for rock vocals

One thing to try if you have to further tame a really dynamic singer you can always use a studio trick consisting of using two (or more!) comps in series. Route the output of the first compressor into the input of the second one. 2:1 ratio on both, moderately fast to medium attack (or slow in some cases) and a quick release, or use "auto" on those dbx units like Evan pointed out. Try to get the threshold to never squash things more than 3 or 4dB on either unit. Better to use two comps at lower levels of reduction than to use one and completely crush the signal. Anyone else out there using a similar technique?

I have used a slow optical compressor to fatten up a vocal into a faster compressor at a higher threshold to tame the peaks but only on particularly dynamic singers who were not good at working a mic. This was in the studio though.

 

[Robert "VOiD" Caprio]

Re: Compressor novice... need starting point for rock vocals

I've done this on a 1066 with both the compressor and the limiter. Worked reasonably well in the smallish venue I was in.

Yeah, it's a killer technique. I should add that the 2nd comp should kick in just when the 1st one is reducing signal by the expected 3-4 dB. That way if things are fairly reasonable level-wise, then only the 1st comp kicks in. The 2nd one just backs up the 1st and gives you that extra reduction if needed.

 

[Robert "VOiD" Caprio]

Re: Compressor novice... need starting point for rock vocals

I have used a slow optical compressor to fatten up a vocal into a faster compressor at a higher threshold to tame the peaks but only on particularly dynamic singers who were not good at working a mic. This was in the studio though.

Try it live too! You do need to be careful with stage/monitor wash and your choice of mic but if you have the time to experiment it's worth it. I use a varying combo of comps linked for Cee Lo since he's so dynamic and spontaneous. Works great.

 

[harrybrilljr]

Re: Compressor novice... need starting point for rock vocals

Wow, I do almost the exact opposite of most of the other posters. 2:1 is nothing really. Stacking 2 comps 2:1 is a tiny bit more than nothing. I prefer more,.... infinity:1 or something high like 8:1, 10:1 VERY SOFT KNEE "Over Easy" Attack and release to auto on these should work otherwise a pretty fast attack (use your ears) and a slow release (use your ears). The way overeasy or soft knee compression works is that everything OVER the threshold would be at the value you set the knob to. As the threshold is approached, the compression ratio is higher and higher 1:1 then 1.x:1 then 2:1, etc, until finally that threshold is reached and we have infinity:1 (limiting). I rarely reach that point btw, but it depends Lower level dynamics are preserved. The really hot stuff is leveled out. The best (easiest) way to drive this is to take the vocal in to a channel (eq to taste) take a post fader direct out into the compressor, then the output of the comp into another channel and routed from there. You can manipulate the drive and return very easily with the faders during the show. One of the best compressors I personally ever used was the Drawmer 1969. There is no compression ratio on these, just attack release, a control for the drive level/ threshold control, and a gain control to make up the gain through the unit. http://www.mercenaryeditions.com/images/1969-BIG.jpg The 1968 is the compressor only version. Redirect Notice
They are very good TUBE comps right up there with Avalon and Summit, but I can get very close on a yamaha digi desk using the settings I described.

Attack and release are very important. Sometimes you want a bit of the front end to get through uncompressed. This is particularly important with drums, guitar, and bass IMO. If you hear pumping, the compressor is not set up properly (unless you wanted to hear pumping).

I modify this a bit for the talking head stuff but the ratios are still very high and the knee very soft.

 

[Evan Kirkendall]

Re: Compressor novice... need starting point for rock vocals

I've never been a fan of the 2 comp thing. I tried it for a while, but found I could get better results from one comp. I want my vocal comp to react quick, and get out of the way quick. Anything that lingers around for more than a few ms bothers me. For me personally, I do a 6:1 ratio, 0ms attack, 81-120ms release, and a soft knee. I'll average 8-15dB of comp on my vocal. It works very well for me, and gives me a very consistent vocal sound. But, that's getting a lot more complicated than what I'm sure Chuck is trying to do.

Drifting more off topic, here's a board recording I recently did: http://www.harfordsound.com/Do you want me deadd.mp3

You can't hear the vocal comp working, but you can hear the consistency it creates.


Evan

 

[Jeff Babcock]

Re: Compressor novice... need starting point for rock vocals

Try it live too! You do need to be careful with stage/monitor wash and your choice of mic but if you have the time to experiment it's worth it. I use a varying combo of comps linked for Cee Lo since he's so dynamic and spontaneous. Works great.

I do this in the studio (ie LA2A into an 1176) as practically a vocal default, but don't know why it never occurred to me to try live. Thanks for the suggestion!

 

[harrybrilljr]

Evan not my style of music (Disney radio never been my thing) but a decent mix as I'm sure through the pa it was 10 times better. Well done.

 

[Dick Rees]

Re: Compressor novice... need starting point for rock vocals

Evan not my style of music (Disney radio never been my thing) but a decent mix as I'm sure through the pa it was 10 times better. Well done.

Stardust it ain't......but like you said, you probably woulda hadda be there.

 

[Chuck Fry]

Re: Compressor novice... need starting point for rock vocals

I did play with the 166XL a little bit at yesterday's rehearsal. I had some other issues to take care of... being the bass player and a vocalist myself... and phantom power problems with the board didn't help. I had the compressor inserted on the two most problematic vocalists' channels. I tried to use a light touch. I went with OverEasy, fast attack, release at 12 o'clock, 3:1 ratio, threshold right around 0 db. I didn't see a lot of gain reduction when I was watching.

The female lead said she thought she sounded better - and I didn't tell her what I was doing. The harmonica player arrived late, and I had no time at all to dial him in.

Thanks again for all the suggestions and discussions. I can see I have a lot to learn.

 

[Marsellus Fariss]

Re: Compressor novice... need starting point for rock vocals

I did play with the 166XL a little bit at yesterday's rehearsal. I had some other issues to take care of... being the bass player and a vocalist myself... and phantom power problems with the board didn't help. I had the compressor inserted on the two most problematic vocalists' channels. I tried to use a light touch. I went with OverEasy, fast attack, release at 12 o'clock, 3:1 ratio, threshold right around 0 db. I didn't see a lot of gain reduction when I was watching.

The female lead said she thought she sounded better - and I didn't tell her what I was doing. The harmonica player arrived late, and I had no time at all to dial him in.

Thanks again for all the suggestions and discussions. I can see I have a lot to learn.

Thats how things go in club band land right?

Keep compression out of the wedges. Very inportant. Causes problems with vocalists endurance and feedback. Insert them at the groups if you need to. If your not sure if your monitor sends are pre or post insert points just insert one at the channel and zero the output knob of the comp. if signal disappears then your sends are post. I keep 6 RNC's strapped across the groups of my desk in my place so I can route to them and keep it out of the wedges. (no monitor desk right now) I comp vocals 90 percent of the time. 4:1 ratio, 60ms attack, 300ms release. If the vocalists is really aggressive I shorten the attack time and comp 6:1 or 8:1. I like to see 4-6 DB of gain reduction on strong notes. Some comps are very audible when doing this. The RNC'S is not. That's why I have 6. You should put some phones on and play with the comps using your voice, bass and maybe an acoustic guitar for a while and get used to what knobs do what. Compression is very important.

 

[Oscar Castro]

Re: Compressor novice... need starting point for rock vocals

What about compressors on digital boards? like yamaha's, etc..... same principles? compress to a single channel or groups or? tips?

 

[Eric Cagle]

Re: Compressor novice... need starting point for rock vocals

What about compressors on digital boards? like yamaha's, etc..... same principles? compress to a single channel or groups or? tips?

The same exact principles apply. Most of the better digital compression sounds really great, much more transparent. Alot of the patching has to do with personal preference. In an ideal world you wouldn't need any compression (lots of system headroom, perfect player and singer dynamics, etc.) but we seldom mix in anything close to an ideal world. Less is usually better to the degree of the quality of the input. For the most part we are trying to smooth out inconsistant dynamics with the signal source.