Console Investment cometh...

Dan Michaels

Freshman
Apr 18, 2012
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Eau Claire, WI
Looking for some input from folks I respect, who do this on a more regular basis than we do. Would appreciate some 'sound' input rather than the "that console sucks" crap some folks tend to love slinging. If something blows, tell me WHY.

In the market for one or two new consoles to replace/supplement the current lineup consisting of an LS9, Soundcraft MH2 and Soundcraft MH3. Digital is the direction and preferably a digital snake due to the constraints we're encountering in venues more and more. First console will probably start its life with me on monitor beach but there's a strong possibility we may look at two so sharing the stage box I/O would be a plus.

We do quite a bit of repeat business with local/regional performers and see our fair share of the national "weekender" bands who frequent many of the fairs and festivals through the region. Some may travel with their own FOH but most don't come with a monitor engineer. Recall is obviously a must so we can check the headliner, check the support, run the openers and pray the girls in the front row are cute. We also have a few venues throughout the area that provide us good repeat business year 'round so the ability to permanently install a 'snake' is definitely a plus. No more lines across the aisle...

Monitor mixes range normally from 5-12 but we did have one aging country performer's rider hit 24 recently. For us that's more of a rarity but it did cost us the gig because of having to rent a desk to handle it. IEMs are becoming more commonplace.

There seems to be a myriad of options but the four that stand out financially and functionally at the moment are:
Yamaha M7 (granted sharing the I/O is difficult digitally)
Digico SD9
DigiDesign SC48
The forthcoming Yamaha CL3

The M7 is the console I'm most familiar with and probably the easiest to have someone from the analog world walk up to and comprehend? Our crowds run in the 4000 and fewer department so we're not doing "arena" work by any means. Open fields and theaters, pole-barns and ice-rinks/sheds seem to be where we find ourselves most of the time.

Thanks in advance for your time. I know there was a similar thread to this in the past couple weeks but I thought I'd give you more of an idea as to what we're doing.

Also, I'd really like to have iPad compatibility if possible. Walking out and hearing someone's monitor mix while I'm setting it up helps greatly.
 
Re: Console Investment cometh...

The A&H GLD series does fit all of your requirements. It's brand new, so no real world experience yet, but looks like it's designed for exactly what you are trying yo do.

The GLD does look great, we'll likely be using a bunch in smaller installs. However, I doubt it would pass any rider. I also happen to like the iLive, but it also isn't very rider friendly.

Look at the Midas Pro2.
 
Re: Console Investment cometh...

I would include the Midas Pro2 in that list. I have heard nothing but good things about it (almost played with one on sunday) and I hear the price is in the 20k range.
 
Re: Console Investment cometh...

I would include the Midas Pro2 in that list. I have heard nothing but good things about it (almost played with one on sunday) and I hear the price is in the 20k range.

After having played with one, I would have to say I'm not sure it would be fast enough for me. With the M7, the digico and the sc48, I feel like I could throw together a mix for a last minute addition quickly. I feel like it would take longer with the pro 2. It also takes quite a bit of time to get a new engineer up to speed on the pro 2. 30 minutes on a digico or the sc48 and I was able to get around easily. It took me 2 hours to figure out the basics on the pro2.
 
Re: Console Investment cometh...

I'm in the same boat as you... looking for an FOH console solution and here is what I'm come up with.
SD9 - great value ( console, case, snake reels and TWO 32 x 8 snake heads) ~ 27K . it has gain sharing capabilites between desks - probably the best sounding console from comments I've heard to date, I personally haven't heard one, but I will be using one this weekend, I'll let you know.

SC48 - very rider friendly, sounds good - may not be the easiest monitor desk to drive, but again, i've only watched, never drove. digital snake configuration is wierd but workable - not sure about gain sharing.

Yamaha - I have an LS-9 , and yamaha is Ipad ready without any BS. Everything I've heard to date is, yeah they will take it, but it won't be the favorite... up to 24 mixes wont happen on an M7, but as you said that is a rareity.

Midas Pro 2 - again probably in the top two soncially (again from the heresay). Have not used one, but those who have speak highly of the deak ( Brandon :)). This console is going to be my next target to get my hands on and try... The Ipad app is out for it, but you can't do see squat without it connected to a desk... I've priced this desk, ready to go tour pack with snake for like 25K USD
 
Re: Console Investment cometh...

If you're even considering the M7, buy the SC48. But, if you're even considering the SC48, buy the Pro 2. Anyone who has any experience on the other Midas digital desks will be right at home on the pro 2. I was thrown onto one a few weeks ago and absolutely loved it. It sounds just like the the other Pro series desks and really isnt slow at all- no worse then an SC48 to start from scratch.

Sonically, it's the best for the $$, period. I showed an engineer how to use it, and he was fine within 10 minutes. Is rider friendly, and is an SC48 and M7 killer.



Evan
 
Re: Console Investment cometh...

Does the scroll function on the Pro2 get in the way? I did a good chunk of reading last night and am watching through a number of the videos right now and the scroll looks like it might get a little annoying...? Also, how do the FX stack up to Venue or Yamaha?
 
Re: Console Investment cometh...

Yamaha - I have an LS-9 , and yamaha is Ipad ready without any BS. Everything I've heard to date is, yeah they will take it, but it won't be the favorite... up to 24 mixes wont happen on an M7, but as you said that is a rareity.

The CL line will do up to 32 mixes (yes the 8 matrix outputs can be feed directly by the input channels in either pre-fade or post-fade). The street price on the CL3 and a couple of RIO boxes will put it probably above the other offerings, but you will have instant familiarity with it due to your experience on the M7. I can't comment on the sound quality, and neither can anyone else because no one has had a chance to hear it in a quality listening environment, but they have redesigned the mic preamps and the word clock.

I spent a good but of time looking at the Yamaha and Digico stuff at NAB this week. and while I would never pass up the chance to work on any of the SD series of Digico consoles, they seem to be too deep and too complicated for your run of the mill sound guy. The Yamaha has a lot of that same amount of depth, but it is presented in a little more understandable way. One of the things that I really like about the Yamaha interface on the new CL consoles is that they have kept it uncluttered. There's so much information presented on the screen in the Digico stuff, that it's hard to quickly find what you are looking for or identify what you are looking at versus the Yamaha.

I don't have any opinion on the Midas stuff, since no one in my part of the country can get their hands on one, and Midas doesn't seem to be interested in promoting any training events outside of the UK, NYC, LA or Nashville. (Same goes for Digico). Yamaha on the other hand will be incorporating the CL into their regular training sessions starting in August, and will be offering a CL training session in Dallas in August as well.
 
Re: Console Investment cometh...

Does the scroll function on the Pro2 get in the way? I did a good chunk of reading last night and am watching through a number of the videos right now and the scroll looks like it might get a little annoying...? Also, how do the FX stack up to Venue or Yamaha?

You're not supposed to really use the scroll buttons at any time after you set up the desk. It's not like a traditional console where you mix off your inputs from various layers. The Midas concept has you assign channels to VCA's or POPgroups, then work from logical groups of channels at a time instead of remembering what channel number that input is assigned to and what layer that input is on.
 
Re: Console Investment cometh...

You're not supposed to really use the scroll buttons at any time after you set up the desk. It's not like a traditional console where you mix off your inputs from various layers. The Midas concept has you assign channels to VCA's or POPgroups, then work from logical groups of channels at a time instead of remembering what channel number that input is assigned to and what layer that input is on.

So this would probably be a better desk for a show that you have time to build/set up in advance, and not the best for the "less than organized, run & gun" shows?
 
Re: Console Investment cometh...

So this would probably be a better desk for a show that you have time to build/set up in advance, and not the best for the "less than organized, run & gun" shows?

You could still assign your channels in a more traditional way using the POPgroups as layer select buttons, I.E. channels 1-16 on POP group 1, 17-32 on group 2, ect.
 
Re: Console Investment cometh...

CL1 or CL3 is definitely looking attractive. Got pricing on both today and, the CL1 w/ a 32 & 16 input stage box was right at $24k. The CL3 w/ a pair of 32's came in around $31k. Still haven't ruled SC48 or Pro2 out of the running but considering I could slide a Dante card in my existing Yamaha digital board, and give it the ability to interface, it sure looks attractive.
 
Re: Console Investment cometh...

I have had the chance to work with the M7, SC48, SD8/9, and PRO2 this spring. As the OP mentioned the desk would likely be washed up on monitor beach for a while, considering that, I would put the DiGiCo at the top of the list. I think it 1, sounds the best out of the given options (the PRO2 in a close, musical, 2nd), 2 the desk is organized beautifully, and 3 the graphs are a dream. While the Pro2 does have KT graphs which sound very, very good, the software was made for the KT external digital graph that is tied into the larger PRO series boards. Given this, there is no 0 detente or return to 0, this makes for a sketchy monitor situation.

I also really like the MADI interface DiGiCo uses, but will be honest that the effects are horrendous. (best on board effects have been from the Soundcraft Vi series with its Lexicon FX, so close to a PCM90!!!)

My vote is for the DiGiCo
 
Re: Console Investment cometh...

I have had the chance to work with the M7, SC48, SD8/9, and PRO2 this spring. As the OP mentioned the desk would likely be washed up on monitor beach for a while, considering that, I would put the DiGiCo at the top of the list. I think it 1, sounds the best out of the given options (the PRO2 in a close, musical, 2nd), 2 the desk is organized beautifully, and 3 the graphs are a dream. While the Pro2 does have KT graphs which sound very, very good, the software was made for the KT external digital graph that is tied into the larger PRO series boards. Given this, there is no 0 detente or return to 0, this makes for a sketchy monitor situation.

I also really like the MADI interface DiGiCo uses, but will be honest that the effects are horrendous. (best on board effects have been from the Soundcraft Vi series with its Lexicon FX, so close to a PCM90!!!)

My vote is for the DiGiCo

As I mentioned on another forum, one major problem with the SD series is that you cannot currently do pre-fade, pre-eq, pre-dynamics aux sends. The pick point for pre-fade auxes is after channel eq and dynamics. For us, this isn't really a problem as we will either have a separate monitor desk out with it, or will be using few enough channels to split channels in the console. If you need to do mons from FOH with an SD9, this is definitely something to think about. The rep told me they have received a lot of requests to change this in a software update, so it looks like this will change eventually.
I don't find the effects to be that terrible. The verbs are not the best (certainly nowhere near the quality of Lexicon), but with the Waves package there are some good options available.
-Nick
 
If you're going to split the console anyway why not just have a separate fader bank for you monitor sends? You can assign inputs to wherever and you can have separate EQ for your Mons.
 
Re: Console Investment cometh...

CL1 or CL3 is definitely looking attractive. Got pricing on both today and, the CL1 w/ a 32 & 16 input stage box was right at $24k. The CL3 w/ a pair of 32's came in around $31k. Still haven't ruled SC48 or Pro2 out of the running but considering I could slide a Dante card in my existing Yamaha digital board, and give it the ability to interface, it sure looks attractive.

Dan, Just curious on how you received pricing? Being a yamaha dealer and working with the same person who is the rep in your area I have been told that pricing for the desk still does not exist....