Copyright, Patent, General Intellectual Property Discussion (Branch from M32 Thread)

[John Roberts]

Agree, they are not on the same scale. But our world (pro sound) is small too, so X32 at $3K today is no less than original Macintosh in 1984 at that level. The revolutionary part is its price tag. To have a $10-15K mixer functionality for $3K is not a small deal. Ford model T, may be?

Wow, wrong on a few levels. The low price X-32 is certainly an achievement but not revolutionary. Ford was a true visionary about advancing manufacturing technology (assembly line) and even for paying his workers more (so workers could afford to buy a car). While the later Apple products were (are) derivative the early work involving Wozniak (an actual engineer) was pretty significant.

Steve Jobs didn't created revolutionary products either. Everything Apple did before and now existed in various forms, he just put the parts together the right way. Books are written about it. There were camera phones before, then music players, then Treo and Blackberry, then touch screens, and then came iPhone that had all this in better package.

yes, Apple has excelled at execution of the entire product experience. Superior design, craftsmanship, customer service , and the complete product "eco-system". For a music player that means easy access to music, for a computer that is basic operating software, etc.

While I agree that products deserve to be judged on their merits (and I try to), none of us get to re-write our history, and shed baggage from our past behavior.

I won't rehash history for those who do not know it, because it's "history" (the audio doesn't care), but those of us with decades of experience in these markets will be influenced by that history we lived.

YMMV

JR

 

[Steve Payne]

re: New Midas M32 Console

While I agree that products deserve to be judged on their merits (and I try to), none of us get to re-write our history, and shed baggage from our past behavior.

I won't rehash history for those who do not know it, because it's "history" (the audio doesn't care), but those of us with decades of experience in these markets will be influenced by that history we lived.

YMMV

JR

Amen.

 

[Per Søvik]

re: New Midas M32 Console

While I agree that products deserve to be judged on their merits (and I try to), none of us get to re-write our history, and shed baggage from our past behavior.

I won't rehash history for those who do not know it, because it's "history" (the audio doesn't care), but those of us with decades of experience in these markets will be influenced by that history we lived.

Amen.

While JR is being very objective despite his baggage, there are so many that are using the "Clowns are evil"-argument as if one's own sentiments and phobias based on past traumas are valid arguments in a discussion.
Other people's sentiments are of course valid arguments, since these sentiments form the environment one operates in, there is a big difference between refusing to put a mike on an actor in a clown's costume and not booking a clown for the Clown Trauma Support Group annual party.

 

[John Roberts]

Copyright, Patent, General Intellectual Property Discussion (Branch from M32 Thread)

While JR is being very objective despite his baggage, there are so many that are using the "Clowns are evil"-argument as if one's own sentiments and phobias based on past traumas are valid arguments in a discussion.

Just to be clear, I am not the one here with any baggage to inspect. I have worked in this industry for decades and have always treated others fairly and honestly (not just legally, but fair and honest). My reputation is an open book and many here have known me personally or through my participation on these forums for decades. I was trying to be gracious by referring to it as "baggage" and obviously not mine to bear.

Other people's sentiments are of course valid arguments, since these sentiments form the environment one operates in, there is a big difference between refusing to put a mike on an actor in a clown's costume and not booking a clown for the Clown Trauma Support Group annual party.

I am not clear about where you are going with your clowns allusion. Since you mentioned me by name, and further suggest I have some baggage, it feels like a subtle attempt to discredit me. If this was your idea of a compliment, it didn't work.

My experience informs my judgement and I try to inform others without being too inflammatory. Life is too short to inform people who don't want to learn. Trust me I could be far less gracious if pushed. I do not choose to dwell on the past, especially when it wasn't literally money coming out of my pockets, but some incidents are not that old, or still persist.

I have better things to do with my time than impose my product preferences on others. I suspect many here are just trying to rationalize their past purchases looking for justification from the professional community here.

If you misunderstood my post, there I cleared it up for you... If you believe my judgement is somehow flawed, we must agree to disagree.

JR

PS: My apologies to the group for this editorial veer...

 

[Steve Payne]

Re: New Midas M32 Console

PS: My apologies to the group for this editorial veer...

No apologies necessary.

 

[Arik Semagin]

Re: New Midas M32 Console

Just to be clear, I am not the one here with any baggage to inspect. I have worked in this industry for decades and have always treated others fairly and honestly (not just legally, but fair and honest). My reputation is an open book and many here have known me personally or through my participation on these forums for decades. I was trying to be gracious by referring to it as "baggage" and obviously not mine to bear.


I am not clear about where you are going with your clowns allusion. Since you mentioned me by name, and further suggest I have some baggage, it feels like a subtle attempt to discredit me. If this was your idea of a compliment, it didn't work.

My experience informs my judgement and I try to inform others without being too inflammatory. Life is too short to inform people who don't want to learn. Trust me I could be far less gracious if pushed. I do not choose to dwell on the past, especially when it wasn't literally money coming out of my pockets, but some incidents are not that old, or still persist.

I have better things to do with my time than impose my product preferences on others. I suspect many here are just trying to rationalize their past purchases looking for justification from the professional community here.

If you misunderstood my post, there I cleared it up for you... If you believe my judgement is somehow flawed, we must agree to disagree.

JR

PS: My apologies to the group for this editorial veer...

Guys, let's keep this forum purely technical and stop expressing your egos and bragging about years of experience. If you can't keep your feelings inside, send a private message to those whose postings piss you off. I don't f@@king care about your egos and how many years you've spent in business, all I want to know if you actually worked with this or that piece of equipment, how did you use it and if your observations and conclusions are based on that or something you've just heard/read/thinking about. Why we have to read through all this above at "New MIDAS desk" thread?

It's like a snow ball, your heated reply here will generate an equally heated response from someone feeling offended (with long quote), then another, and another.....

I'm guilty of that too, not doing it anymore. Please limit your posts to M32/X32 topics here.

P.S. Not addressing John's above, but rather all previous replies.

 

[Branson Sagear]

Re: New Midas M32 Console

If you thought John posted anything about his ego in his post, I believe you need to re-read it.

He is referring to his experience in this industry and I for one value his thoughts and observations. Egos and experience are not related in any way to each other. One can have a very high ego with little experience; And one can also have a very high level of experience with no hint of an ego. (generally I find this example to be the case)

His experience and time in this industry is very valuable, and should be appreciated. It should carry more weight than most.

Behringer's experience and time in this industry should also be very valuable, and be appreciated. However, as a company they have past business aspects to take into account. How you view those past business experiences is up to the end user. Personally I can't get over the past business practices of that company, and choose not to support them or their products. This is in addition for my dislike of their current products.

Buying established companies and then changing everything that that company was known for is yet another (in my opinion) horrible business practice that I just won't support.

As far as I know, the M32 is not out in the wild yet, so anything most people say is just speculation. There is nothing wrong with speculation on the internet, it just needs to be taken with a grain of salt like everything else on the 'net.

Maybe if there was a shred of truth to Behringer's marketing for the M32, then people wouldn't need to speculate so much.

 

[Per Søvik]

Re: New Midas M32 Console

Just to be clear, I am not the one here with any baggage to inspect. I have worked in this industry for decades and have always treated others fairly and honestly (not just legally, but fair and honest). My reputation is an open book and many here have known me personally or through my participation on these forums for decades. I was trying to be gracious by referring to it as "baggage" and obviously not mine to bear.


I am not clear about where you are going with your clowns allusion. Since you mentioned me by name, and further suggest I have some baggage, it feels like a subtle attempt to discredit me. If this was your idea of a compliment, it didn't work.

I probably misunderstood your baggage reference. I was simply suggesting that you are among the few that are able to be objective about Behringer's current offerings despite any resentment you might (quite legitimately it would seem) be feeling towards the company and the man himself. If everybody could be that objective and level headed........
The clowns allusion had nothing to do with you at all, I was simply suggesting that personal feelings and aversions are not a valid argument, and that constantly using arguments that are based on personal feelings about Behringer is not productive. You are a prime example of those who don't use those kinds of arguments.
My communication skills, or rather lack thereof unfortunately let me down quite often, sorry!

My experience informs my judgement and I try to inform others without being too inflammatory. Life is too short to inform people who don't want to learn. Trust me I could be far less gracious if pushed. I do not choose to dwell on the past, especially when it wasn't literally money coming out of my pockets, but some incidents are not that old, or still persist.

I have better things to do with my time than impose my product preferences on others. I suspect many here are just trying to rationalize their past purchases looking for justification from the professional community here.

If you misunderstood my post, there I cleared it up for you... If you believe my judgement is somehow flawed, we must agree to disagree.

JR

PS: My apologies to the group for this editorial veer...

Oh, I don't know, reading between the lines is a very subjective exercise, and I'm not entirely sure what it actually says. Personally I don't need approval for my choice of equipment, but I'm not sure if you are indeed chastising those of us that have chosen the X32 and potentially the M32, or giving you mild approval. :blush: Again, reading between the line when cultural and linguistic background is different, not easy.

 

[Tim McCulloch]

Re: New Midas M32 Console

Guys, let's keep this forum purely technical and stop expressing your egos and bragging about years of experience. If you can't keep your feelings inside, send a private message to those whose postings piss you off. I don't f@@king care about your egos and how many years you've spent in business, all I want to know if you actually worked with this or that piece of equipment, how did you use it and if your observations and conclusions are based on that or something you've just heard/read/thinking about. Why we have to read through all this above at "New MIDAS desk" thread?

It's like a snow ball, your heated reply here will generate an equally heated response from someone feeling offended (with long quote), then another, and another.....

I'm guilty of that too, not doing it anymore. Please limit your posts to M32/X32 topics here.

P.S. Not addressing John's above, but rather all previous replies.

We already have moderators, they are the owners of the site....

 

[Bennett Prescott]

Re: New Midas M32 Console

Who the fuck died and appointed you moderator?

Arik is new here and exposed for the first time to some of our more storied members

Arik, this community has been around for a long time - much longer than this one site (which has been around for a surprisingly long time now too!). Many of us are old friends, even if we haven't met in person. Unfortunately you will just have to deal with some "fireside banter" as a result. Some threads escape, some get way off topic. I tend to not jump in unless it gets really bad, and then move the new topic into a thread of its own. This one's still pretty on topic, so hopefully it will get back to serious business for your viewing pleasure in short order.

 

[Steve Payne]

Re: New Midas M32 Console

Arik is new here and exposed for the first time to some of our more storied members

Arik, this community has been around for a long time - much longer than this one site (which has been around for a surprisingly long time now too!). Many of us are old friends, even if we haven't met in person. Unfortunately you will just have to deal with some "fireside banter" as a result. Some threads escape, some get way off topic. I tend to not jump in unless it gets really bad, and then move the new topic into a thread of its own. This one's still pretty on topic, so hopefully it will get back to serious business for your viewing pleasure in short order.

View attachment 9237

I wish we had an "dislike" button on this forum. A simple click when I read some of the dumb shit that gets posted would suffice and prevent me from making some of the snarky smart assed "off topic" replies I let myself be drawn into.

 

[Branson Sagear]

Re: New Midas M32 Console

You know, it is possible on the internet for someone to say something you might "dislike."

Even though it might not seem like it, it is possible to just not say anything, haha.

 

[Tim McCulloch]

Re: New Midas M32 Console

Arik is new here and exposed for the first time to some of our more storied members

Arik, this community has been around for a long time - much longer than this one site (which has been around for a surprisingly long time now too!). Many of us are old friends, even if we haven't met in person. Unfortunately you will just have to deal with some "fireside banter" as a result. Some threads escape, some get way off topic. I tend to not jump in unless it gets really bad, and then move the new topic into a thread of its own. This one's still pretty on topic, so hopefully it will get back to serious business for your viewing pleasure in short order.

View attachment 9237

You're fast on the quote, Bennett. I edited my reply after about 30 seconds...

And that cat is from the iron workers, you can tell by the wrench model. ')

 

[brian maddox]

Re: New Midas M32 Console

You're fast on the quote, Bennett. I edited my reply after about 30 seconds...

And that cat is from the iron workers, you can tell by the wrench model. ')

Are you sure? He's got a C-wrench. And he can't spell. Could be IATSE.

 

[Tim McCulloch]

Re: New Midas M32 Console

Are you sure? He's got a C-wrench. And he can't spell. Could be IATSE.

It's the wrong C-wrench (and wrong hard hat, too)... No catz kan spel, it goes with the species.

If your cat can spell (and extra points for punctuation), I propose a road show.

 

[John Roberts]

Re: New Midas M32 Console

My communication skills, or rather lack thereof unfortunately let me down quite often, sorry!

No worries, apparently I was not alone in drawing that impression.

Oh, I don't know, reading between the lines is a very subjective exercise, and I'm not entirely sure what it actually says. Personally I don't need approval for my choice of equipment, but I'm not sure if you are indeed chastising those of us that have chosen the X32 and potentially the M32, or giving you mild approval. :blush: Again, reading between the line when cultural and linguistic background is different, not easy.

Neither... While I disapprove of the company's past behavior, I do not expect consumers to boycott the brand because of my opinions. If I was in the market to buy such a product it would be on my short list to check out. If I was still in the market as a competitor, I hope I wouldn't have given them such a wide open market window to exploit (a major mistake by the existing digital console makers but I've said this before).

I am watching the brand management by Uli of his higher brand acquisitions with interest, since I have experienced such takeovers up close and personal (you never see the high brand buy a lower brand because the money and profit is in the mass market). So far I have to give him credit for no obvious mistakes, but he didn't get where he got by making a lot of mistakes.

Sorry I do tend to leave a lot between the lines on purpose. I do not want to stir up pissing contests which are ultimately a waste of time. Most of the folks that don't get my subtly don't need to.

I now return you to your originally scheduled thread, and apologize again for my self serving editorial.

JR

 

[Arik Semagin]

Re: New Midas M32 Console

Behringer's experience and time in this industry should also be very valuable, and be appreciated. However, as a company they have past business aspects to take into account. How you view those past business experiences is up to the end user. Personally I can't get over the past business practices of that company, and choose not to support them or their products. This is in addition for my dislike of their current products.

First, I've noted it there, it's not about John's, rather the whole philosophical thread not related to M32/X32. Sorry to everyone who feels offended.

Everybody copies others' works, even my beloved Apple. Nothing new, nothing special and the knight on a white horse usually loses nowadays. The only question is who does it better. Behringer definitely is. I am grateful to Uli Behringer for bringing many great products to the level of "affordable" (long before X32), I own a ton of them, and the fact that he brought the MIDAS and Klark Teknik technology within the reach of masses in X32 is not a small task. If he would just capitalize on MIDAS, we would never see a full-blown digital mixer with CAT5 snake for under $4K! Uli is no less in music business than Henry Ford 1st when he introduced the Model T in 1907 -- the car that many were able to afford, and that literally changed America.

If not Behringer, many of us (JV) would've just dreaming about owning something like SC48, S3L, M7 may be, all with $15K-plus price tags. Now we have X32 for $4k (mixer plus one stagebox) that does most of what those desks do just fine.

You are wrong about "Buying established companies and then changing everything that that company was known for". MIDAS quality didn't suffer, neither did model range, he just cut production costs by moving it to his German factory in China, the "Music Group City", where he controls everyting. He actually made MIDAS more competitive with Yamaha and AVID. Instead of making boutique desks he brought MIDAS quality to masses, to the level where many bands, small venues and soundcos can afford it.

You can hate Behringer, but I totally respect him and his business practices. The end results is what matters and we, the sound guys, are the ones who benefit from it.

 

[Arik Semagin]

Re: New Midas M32 Console

Arik is new here and exposed for the first time to some of our more storied members

Arik, this community has been around for a long time - much longer than this one site (which has been around for a surprisingly long time now too!). Many of us are old friends, even if we haven't met in person. Unfortunately you will just have to deal with some "fireside banter" as a result. Some threads escape, some get way off topic. I tend to not jump in unless it gets really bad, and then move the new topic into a thread of its own. This one's still pretty on topic, so hopefully it will get back to serious business for your viewing pleasure in short order.

Thanks for a note, Bennet, I am new indeed. Appreciate your input, this is a great forum, and yes, sometimes it sparks the flame where you don't expect. Try to control myself too. Thanks to everybody for technical info, even to those with big egos!

Any news on when M32 will hit the stores?

 

[John Roberts]

Re: New Midas M32 Console

First, I've noted it there, it's not about John's, rather the whole philosophical thread not related to M32/X32. Sorry to everyone who feels offended.

"I try to stop, but they keep dragging me back in...." You rang?

Everybody copies others' works, even my beloved Apple. Nothing new, nothing special and the knight on a white horse usually loses nowadays.

As I said before you do not get to re-write history. A close inspection of this history will not help your case. If you want to end this discussion stop trying to gloss over it or downplay it. Even your beloved Apple was sued by Creative Labs for ripping off their MP-3 player technology. They eventually admitted Creative's IP priority and paid them off.

A more accurate statement is that the most egregious behavior is in the past, and should not inform current product purchase decisions. Just let it go, I am trying to. But every time somebody tries to dismiss it as normal business practice, it gets my blood pressure up.

The only question is who does it better. Behringer definitely is.

Certainly a remarkable value. Absolutely better is questionable. Good for the money seems appropriate.

I am grateful to Uli Behringer for bringing many great products to the level of "affordable" (long before X32), I own a ton of them, and the fact that he brought the MIDAS and Klark Teknik technology within the reach of masses in X32 is not a small task. If he would just capitalize on MIDAS, we would never see a full-blown digital mixer with CAT5 snake for under $4K! Uli is no less in music business than Henry Ford 1st when he introduced the Model T in 1907 -- the car that many were able to afford, and that literally changed America.

Get a room... He is successful but no Henry Ford, IMO.

If not Behringer, many of us (JV) would've just dreaming about owning something like SC48, S3L, M7 may be, all with $15K-plus price tags. Now we have X32 for $4k (mixer plus one stagebox) that does most of what those desks do just fine.

You are wrong about "Buying established companies and then changing everything that that company was known for". MIDAS quality didn't suffer, neither did model range, he just cut production costs by moving it to his German factory in China, the "Music Group City", where he controls everyting. He actually made MIDAS more competitive with Yamaha and AVID. Instead of making boutique desks he brought MIDAS quality to masses, to the level where many bands, small venues and soundcos can afford it.

The acquisition of fading higher end brands by a rising lower end brand is a very old story that routinely occurs in numerous industries. It is the nature of how large businesses hunt for ways to expand top line sales after they saturate their primary brand with line extension. More line extension has diminishing returns so you buy a new badge to sell the similar technology to new customers who wouldn't consider the mainstream brand. A cross pollination of technology can benefit both brands, but this is often overstated publicly, as this strategy is all about addressing more of the market to gain new customers.

You can hate Behringer, but I totally respect him and his business practices. The end results is what matters and we, the sound guys, are the ones who benefit from it.

Opinions vary.. I respect what he has accomplished, not how, but that's just one man's opinion. For the record I do not hate him, while it would be easy to dislike him just from my personal music industry experiences, but the reality is I do not know him personally and do not care to.

JR

PS: To mention something remotely on topic, I wonder if they will revisit the digital interface that is giving some X32 users drop out problems. This alone might give more professional users reason enough to consider this new higher end version.

 

[Arik Semagin]

Re: New Midas M32 Console

....It is related in the sense that the M32's market reception will be very much dependent on how the Behringer phobia works out. There is the incentive to own equipment that doesn't have the Behringer logo among those that are happy using the X32 but realize that potential customers will respond better to Midas logos. On the other hand, Behringer phobia might work against the M32 capturing a lot of the buyers in the segment above the typical X32 customer. My point with the clown analogy, that probably didn't get across, was that one shouldn't let one's own feelings and sentiments get in the way of decisions based on objective facts, while it is perfectly acceptable and prudent to let the sentiments of the potential customers be a big factor in one's decision making.

Agree. It's a balance between what what we have/use/can afford and what customers want. For those who "just can't stand Behringer name" M32 will work, for others who only care about good sound, X32 should be fine. I'm thinking of adding M32 only for that reason (assuming they both nearly identical and can work in pair as two X32s (FOH and monitor desk). But if someone who's writing a check wants MIDAS, let him have it!