Deposits?

Matt Lillie

Sophomore
Jan 11, 2011
180
1
18
NH
Has anyone had a client refuse to pay a deposit upon signing a contract? Clearly spelled out in the contract, " x% deposit due upon signing, x% due upon equipment delivery, remainder due at completion". Now it's time to sign, client would like to pay equipment as delivered, billed weekly (!) for labor, x% of design fee, etc.

Thoughts?
 
Re: Deposits?

Has anyone had a client refuse to pay a deposit upon signing a contract? Clearly spelled out in the contract, " x% deposit due upon signing, x% due upon equipment delivery, remainder due at completion". Now it's time to sign, client would like to pay equipment as delivered, billed weekly (!) for labor, x% of design fee, etc.

Thoughts?
Sounds like a different contract to me.

If you agree with their terms-then write a new contract.

Or as Bennett says-maybe they don't want it-or can't afford it.

You have to be careful that you don't into a financial rut with them and then final payment gets hard to collect.
 
Re: Deposits?

For install - doing 10% chunks is fine. After the first couple payments, design starts; after 5 or so payments are in, materials are ordered. After 7 or so, installation is scheduled. After 8-9, install is performed, but DSP locked out. After final payment, DSP is unlocked.

For live production - payment in hand before the truck is opened for load-in.
 
Re: Deposits?

When I hire companies to do installations, I pay them 50% when we sign the contract.
The rest is paid after the installation is completed per technical specification included in the contract and the customer has received training, complete set of manuals and a serial number list of all items.

If it's not completed as agreed in the technical specs or missing documentation, they don't get the last 50%.
 
Re: Deposits?

It's a little late for them to renegotiate. Send a polite but firm letter asking for the signed contract with deposit(s) as indicated therein to be returned within 10 business days, or you'll consider the contract to be unaccepted by them and the deal is off. Include language that any design work, documents, drawings and other work you've done that may be in their possession is YOUR property and must be returned immediately. Also assert copyright on any and all design documents, and that any work subsequently done by others from those documents *may* open them civil and criminal liability.
 
Re: Deposits?

Has anyone had a client refuse to pay a deposit upon signing a contract? Clearly spelled out in the contract, " x% deposit due upon signing, x% due upon equipment delivery, remainder due at completion". Now it's time to sign, client would like to pay equipment as delivered, billed weekly (!) for labor, x% of design fee, etc.
Was there an initial quote or proposal that identified those terms or is this the first they were presented and discussed? Are they refusing the terms or trying to negotiate?

I don't think there is a 'standard' for payment terms. At one point the Board of Regents here implemented a 0%/100% policy where you got paid nothing until the work was 100% and your choices were to not do any BoR work or come up with creative solutions like breaking a project up into multiple smaller projects, i.e. the equipment being one contract, the installation a second contract and the design and testing a third contract. For larger construction projects it is common to have some initial 'mobilization' fee and 10%-20% retainage, with other milestone or progress billing in between.

I think the size and scope of the project may be a major factor in the payment terms. How you approach a $10k, one week project that will beginning to end be less than a month may be quite different than how you approach a multi-million dollar, years long project. The 50% upfront and 50% at completion approach Helge noted would potentially place both parties at rather extreme risk on a large, long time period project and thus likely be rather inappropriate for such projects.

The Client may also be a significant factor. Many of my corporate and government clients have standard terms and Contracts, it doesn't really matter what you propose, you have to agree to their standard terms and perhaps their standard Contract while negotiating any deviations can be difficult.

Performance Bond could also be a factor. A Performance Bond helps protect the Owner in case a Contractor is unable to complete the contracted work and is basically a way for the Owner to be covered for the costs to get another comparably qualified Contractor to complete the work should the original Contractor be unable to do so and to get that relief without a lengthy and expensive legal process. On any sizable project I do not see an Owner agreeing to a large down payment without having some similar form of protection.

Caleb, you may want to be careful on the DSP programming. The understanding I have is that some states have taken the stance that if the programming is required for the device to operate and if what you sold is a functional system then the programming is essentially an integral part of the device. Basically, you can sell a DSP as a box or you can sell a DSP that can provide certain functionality and in those cases the programming is not an integral element, however if you sell a DSP that will provide certain functionality then the program required to do that may be viewed as an integral part of the product. While far from foolproof, that is one reason I think it is not a bad practice to have programming, system tuning, etc. as separate line items thus helping delineate their being independent of providing the device itself.
 
Re: Deposits?

Without going into too much detail, I will say this proposal is the latest of several. All have had the same terms, and while other items have been addressed payment terms had not been mentioned as an issue.
 
Re: Deposits?

in our case more than 90% of our work is for various city/government agencies or through general contractors.
in both cases you'll typically end up signing their contract or working from a standard PO and the terms are not negotiable.
Although I know many towns are obligated to take advantage of an early payment discount if you offer one, though I've never thought of trying a pre-payment discount like Silas mentioned. Although we also rarely have trouble collecting from those types of customers so it's all down to cash flow in that case.

thinking back, the only times I've ever been able to secure a large deposit upfront were either for a customer that wanted to lock in the price for a job that wasn't going to actually get installed for many months due to construction schedules, or for systems that were going to be installed on a native reserve.
Native reserves are a special case though because as I understand it there are no legal options to repossess the equipment or force them to pay after the fact, so they are pretty used to it and we've had no problems collecting 50% for prep and the remainder before starting work.
 
Re: Deposits?

thinking back, the only times I've ever been able to secure a large deposit upfront were either for a customer that wanted to lock in the price for a job that wasn't going to actually get installed for many months due to construction schedules...
I usually see exactly the opposite. I have a project bidding right now where site work construction has already started and they will probably be awarding the bids before the end of the year but the installation of the AV will likely really start around a year from now. They will get someone under Contract now, which locks in what is being provided and the cost, and will probably pay some fee upfront to cover getting the project into the system, getting Shop Drawings prepared, etc. but I doubt they will pay a large deposit upfront with the potential risk of that Contractor not being around a year from now, something I have had happen on multiple projects over the years.
 
Re: Deposits?

I usually see exactly the opposite. I have a project bidding right now where site work construction has already started and they will probably be awarding the bids before the end of the year but the installation of the AV will likely really start around a year from now. They will get someone under Contract now, which locks in what is being provided and the cost, and will probably pay some fee upfront to cover getting the project into the system, getting Shop Drawings prepared, etc. but I doubt they will pay a large deposit upfront with the potential risk of that Contractor not being around a year from now, something I have had happen on multiple projects over the years.

Sorry, I should have stressed that it was "A" customer who did that.. definitely an exception. but it was at a point when the Canadian dollar had caused equipment prices to drop more than 20% in less than a year, and there was no guarantee that it wasn't going to quickly flop back the other way so I was not prepared to guarantee my price for any length of time.

Jason
 
Re: Deposits?

. but I doubt they will pay a large deposit upfront with the potential risk of that Contractor not being around a year from now, something I have had happen on multiple projects over the years.

A number of years ago we had to "rescue" a Church in which they had paid the full contract-yet the install had just started.

The install crew found out (while on site) that the company had gone out of business-so they left. Gear sitting around etc.

Then the Church had to hire them back (for additional payment) just to get the system "kinda working".

Since the design was messed up, they then hired us to come in and go through it and turn it into a workable/usable system. We dropped the entire loudspeaker system and rehung it.

In the install world there are all kinds of situations that crop up. neither side wants to be left "holding the ball" and wants to be protected.

Sometimes what is "fair" does not seem fair to one party.
 
Re: Deposits?

A number of years ago we had to "rescue" a Church in which they had paid the full contract-yet the install had just started.

The install crew found out (while on site) that the company had gone out of business-so they left. Gear sitting around etc.

Then the Church had to hire them back (for additional payment) just to get the system "kinda working".

Since the design was messed up, they then hired us to come in and go through it and turn it into a workable/usable system. We dropped the entire loudspeaker system and rehung it.

In the install world there are all kinds of situations that crop up. neither side wants to be left "holding the ball" and wants to be protected.

Sometimes what is "fair" does not seem fair to one party.

This is the sort of situation that a performance bond is intended to prevent, and why savvy customers will require such bonds.