HK Elements

Re: HK Elements

Marjan Milosevic said:
Hey,

i am having a difficult time explaining to a customer here why the HK Element is not a real line array.

http://hkaudio.com/products.php5?section=ps&id=224&prod=EA 600

Can you please chime in with your thinking so i can use your answers as a reference?

He believes that because on the box it says a portable line array that he will get a line array.

Thanks.
Click to expand...

First of all, I have heard them at a demo an thought they were a nice product, although a little pricey. Disclaimer; I sell HK Audio speakers through my company, so...

I'd just go for the basics and explain that a proper line array needs a minimum lenght in order for it to be effective. Even if the maximum Elements line is long enough to be effective at some frequencies, it won't have the benefits of a true line array at even all frequencies needed to cover the human voice.

To be fair though, my listening demo did seem to indicate that the boxes do have good dispersion characteristics.
 
Re: HK Elements

Marjan Milosevic said:
Hey,

i am having a difficult time explaining to a customer here why the HK Element is not a real line array.

http://hkaudio.com/products.php5?section=ps&id=224&prod=EA 600
Thanks.
Click to expand...
So how do you describe a "real line array"?

I would classify it as more of a line source-but that is getting picky.

As with any "line" the length is one of the main things to be considered. You can put several units together for additional height/length.

From the little bit I looked at, it should classify as a "line". Small elements closely spaced and vertically stacked. It can be made taller with more units and would follow the same physics. TIghter vertical pattern-lower freq pattern control etc.

Now if you are considering a "line array" as something that is louder, then that does not fall anywhere in the description of a line array that I am aware of.

Why do you not consider it a "line array"?
 
Re: HK Elements

Well, it is a real line array... at least as real as anything is. Any time you array multiple drivers so they cover the same area you create something with line array like effects at some frequency.

The real problem is it has none of the advantages of a modern line array... Yes, there are a lot of drivers and yes, it is a line. However, the vertical coverage is not variable so you get none of the custom fit to venue coverage abilities that a modern line array has. It is probably well behaved in the horizontal, but I bet it is a laser beam in the HF. Except for fairly specific applications, I like the fixed wide splay angle "line arrays" like the VRX a lot more than the fixed no splay angle column arrays like this one.
 
Re: HK Elements

Bennett Prescott said:
Except for fairly specific applications, I like the fixed wide splay angle "line arrays" like the VRX a lot more than the fixed no splay angle column arrays like this one.
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Therein lies the required knowledge of the product in question and the specific application needs.

In rooms that can benefit from a very narrow vertical pattern (such as highly reverberant churches that are mainly speech only), a system like the VRX will do more damage than good.

Of course EXACTLY where the array is mounted will make all the difference in whether or not the system perfomrs as desired. The vertical mounitng hieght is one that I have to FIGHT for on most of these type of installs.

Of course if you need a wider vertical coverage then the VRX is a better choice.

No one loudspeaker system type meets all applications. That is why it is important to understand the advantages and disadvantages of the different types of system. One is not "better" than another, but better for an intended application. And just because it works fine in one room or application does not mean it will work fine in another.
 
Re: HK Elements

Thing is that i can not explain to this guy that with that box he is not getting "the" line array like he is thinking he is.
That box sure is a line array to some extent. But no real 3db loss over doubling the distance, or pattern control you get with real line arrays.
Most important thing for him is that on the boxes it says portable line array :)
 
Re: HK Elements

Marjan Milosevic said:
Thing is that i can not explain to this guy that with that box he is not getting "the" line array like he is thinking he is.
That box sure is a line array to some extent. But no real 3db loss over doubling the distance, or pattern control you get with real line arrays.
Most important thing for him is that on the boxes it says portable line array :)
Click to expand...
Why not? ALL line arrays are dependant on the LENGTH of the array to have the 3dB loss. A short array will have it over a shorter distance than a long one.

When you say pattern control-are you talking about vertical or horizontal? Again the length will matter. If they put 4 boxes together, then the vertical pattern control will extend lower and the 3dB "throw" will extend further into the room.

If you take a "real" line array and only make it 2' tall, it will not work as a line array either.

It looks pretty portable to me-and if you use enough boxes it is a line array-I don't see the problem there.

Now if he thinks that it will do the same job as a larger system costing more money-then no he is not getting what he wants. But it is his money.

FIRST you need to determine the NEEDS/APPLICATION of the loudspeaker system. Then look for one to fit those needs within the available budget.

If it doesn't fit the needs (specific needs-ie NUMBERS not names of products), then it doesn't matter how good of a deal it is.

As far as I am concerned it is a line array and probably works fine within its limitations. If he wants more out of it, well then he should look at the specs first.

Think of pickup trucks. You have all kinds of different sizes with different bed sizes and weight capacities.

A small one is still a pickup truck-in the true sense of the word. But if you want to carry a heavy load, then you need to look at the larger units.

So once again-determining the NEEDS is the first thing that should be considered.

Don't say the small one isn't a pickup truck-say the small one does not meet the needs if larger capacity is needed. But it is not always needed-hence the sale of a lot of the smaller trucks.
 
Re: HK Elements

Marjan Milosevic said:
Ivan, this is a very (go to extreme here) average Joe that does not have a clue what db is. Got it? How do i explain this to him? Send him to school :)
His band plays weddings and he think having a line array is cool.
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Tell him to buy it, then you'll get him a demo of a system that is actually appropriate for his needs, and show him how much money he wasted. Or, he could demo both before he bought either, and hearing is believing.

Some people you can't talk to, you have to show them.
 
Re: HK Elements

Marjan Milosevic said:
Ivan, this is a very (go to extreme here) average Joe that does not have a clue what db is. Got it? How do i explain this to him? Send him to school :)
His band plays weddings and he think having a line array is cool.
Click to expand...
So what is the COOL part? Is it saying that they have a line array-or the look of the system in question?

If it is the look, well then you don't have an argument at all. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

But if it is the term "line array" that really turns them on (we won't go there), then use something like a guy who wants a Fender strat. There are the real ones and then there are the cheap ones that are being made now. They both have the same name-but are not the same thing.

Personally I would not let it bother me if the guy is so hung up on a name. It is his money.
 
Re: HK Elements

Hey Marjan,

The HK Element could be called a Line Array but probably isn't a very good one, although that doesn't necessarily mean it sounds bad.

Given that the arrays length determines at what frequencies it will exhibit any degree of pattern control - the longer the array, the lower the frequency - the HK element should only exhibit Line Array characteristics at a fairly high frequency due to its short length. But, at those higher frequencies, the drivers are probably not within a 1/4 of a wavelength of each other, so will not sum constructively. There probably is a narrow freq. band where it acts like a true Line Array, but I can't imagine that being particularly useful.

HK is probably doing frequency shading of some form, with only one or two of the drivers being used at the highest frequencies, all four at the lower freqs, just like the column speaker manufacturers did back in the '60s.

Its probably a perfectly usable setup, but I wouldn't call it a Line Array. If you think it will work for your customer, regardless if its an LA or not, sell it to him/her. If you think it's going to be misapplied or underpowered, steer him to something different. Getting stuck in a semantics discussion with a customer is not going to serve anyone's needs.

Ciao
Simon
 
Re: HK Elements

Simon.
The Elements system is made so that the bottom of the "stick" is an amplifier module that looks just like a loudspeaker. On top there is a proprietary connector that also acts as a "base" for the actual loudspeakers. The connector looks just like a 1 inch diameter version of your laptop's PSU plug. IIRC three loudspeakers can be stacked on top of the amplifier unit to increase the lenght of the "stick" using the same type of connections (hole on top, rod on the bottom). The amplifier module can either sit on a sub or on a stand.

Anyway, my point: The speakers are not labelled or numbered in any way and are all passive, so which one goes where will be different from gig to gig. Also, there is jusy one "fullrange" connection going to all the speakers. Hence, I doubt there is any frequency shading going on. There is a switch on the amp module that has positions for 1, 2 or 3 loudspeakers, but I think it just equalizes the low end to compensate for coupling between the speakers in this frequency range.
 
Re: HK Elements

It sounds to me like the elements might be perfect for him then. Wedding bands don't need to have a huge stack of PA next to the stage, because it interferes with the planner's delicate sensibilities. If they are using a tiny stick (better than a bose, btw!) than they will get more referrals that leads to more gigs. If it makes him happy, why fight it!
 
Re: HK Elements

Ding ding ding. Demo is the key here I think. In particular, I would try to devise the demo in such a way to show off the almost 360 degree dispersion of the HK (in the horizontal) below 1khz and compare that to a more traditional box. If you could compare it to something with some horn to it (like an SM96, which might be in the same $ ballpark) I think it would be quite revealing. But wow, the HK should be darn easy to fit in the car.
 
Re: HK Elements

Now here comes the fun part. There is no place here where he can demo the HK Elements. No store has it. So he is going to buy it because it looks good, it is an line array which to his understanding just because of that fact (that it is a line array) it will be fucking loud.
Thanks for your time but i can not fight this guy anymore. Ill just let him spend the money.
 
Re: HK Elements

Marjan Milosevic said:
Now here comes the fun part. There is no place here where he can demo the HK Elements. No store has it. So he is going to buy it because it looks good, it is an line array which to his understanding just because of that fact (that it is a line array) it will be fucking loud.
Thanks for your time but i can not fight this guy anymore. Ill just let him spend the money.
Click to expand...
Think of it this way-if he buys it (despite your telling not to) the he is the one that will be upset at himself for not listening to you.

If you steered him away from something and he wasn't happy-he would be upset at you.

At least you can't loose here. Just "I told you so".

Let us know how it turns out.
 
Re: HK Elements

Marjan Milosevic said:
Now here comes the fun part. There is no place here where he can demo the HK Elements. No store has it. So he is going to buy it because it looks good, it is an line array which to his understanding just because of that fact (that it is a line array) it will be fucking loud.
Thanks for your time but i can not fight this guy anymore. Ill just let him spend the money.
Click to expand...

This is not a bad thing because you (and others in your area) will finally be able to hear them. He may very well be happy with the system. Plus, if you ever need a "nice looking line array" you'll know who to go to.

-drew

I edited out some material related to my experience with the product which I have now determined is non-existant experience. Doh. Yes, total SPL might not be so hot with this product.
 
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Re: HK Elements

Marjan Milosevic said:
Drew, the top box is 150W with 97db's 1w/1m. How loud can that be? 123db? That is not loud.
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Actually, the RMS limiter limits output to about 115 dB for a pair of the top cabinets, with four you could see about 121 dB.

Loud is relative, 115 dB at one meter should end up roughly 94-106 dB at 16 meters, plenty for most weddings I've ever been to, but I have never been to a Macedonian wedding ;^).

For what it's worth, I built a pair of mini line arrays each using eight 4" NSB (No Stinking Badges) Pioneer speakers (they were 50 cents apiece from Parts Express) and used them on one gig (with subs) before selling them. They sounded better than my expectations, and were plenty loud enough for the event. The line array effect did actually help in the terrible room (a Quonsit hut with plywood sheeting over all the surfaces), with playback at a conversational level at the front mix about 16 meters back, it was rather impressive that you could walk right up below the column and still carry on a conversation.

I sold the speakers to a jazz musician who found them perfect for lounge and wedding gigs. I later bought a pair of Renkus Heinz ICX7 which used a complex shading crossover and co-axial speakers, they didn't sound as good (and were not nearly as sensitive) as the NSB columns. Sold the ICX7s too.

Art Welter
 

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