How to use VST Plugins live with your X32!?!

C

Christian Boche

Junior
May 18, 2012
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Dear X32 Heads,

in the last couple of weeks, I was experimenting with my X32 setup. The reason why is, that in the last two years I worked a lot with SAC ( SAC - Software Audio Console ).
SAC is a virtual live mixing board and it is capeable to host VST plugins, which I used a lot when mixing rock-shows. So I tried this on my X32 too and it works quite nice.
I'm not sure, if this the best way to do this with the X32, but at least I found a way that works for my needs.

So I thought I could share this with you and maybe someone has a better or smarter way to combine the X32 with VST plugins.
Anyway, this is how I roll:

I set the X32 to firewire and use the 16in/16out setting for that. Than I hook up my MacBookPro (2011 version) grab the signals, that I want to enhance with VST Plugins and route them back to the
Aux ins 1-4 on the X32. Therefore I choose in the "routing" section "card in" as inputs for the Aux ins 1-4. So, mostly I used:

Aux in1: Drumagog for the Bass Drum
Aux in2: distorted Bass with an Ampsimulator
Aux in3: Recabinet (an impluse response loader) fed with the Lineout Signal of the GTR amp from stage
Aux in4: Mostly some FX going for the lead vocals

I almost never use this signals exclusively, there are often mixed with the original signals (using two inputs on the desk). So here is the first pitfall.

Using VST Plugins gives me pretty exact 9ms overall latency on these signals (running with 64Samples buffer size). To mix these signals (original & DAW), you have to delay the original signal to avoid comb filtering.

For example:
My input 1 on the X32 is the original Kick drum mic, input 2 would be the drumagog kick drum, comming from my DAW. To avoid flamming/comb filtering - I use the channel delay on Input 1 and set it to 9ms. This works quite good. Especially because I use a hi cut on the Drumagog signal and a low cut on the original kick. I want a stable low end (which comes from the Drumagog sound) but an organic sounding "kick" sound wherefore I use the low cutted mic sound. If you don't mix original mic inputs and DAW returns, and go only with the DAW sound, than you don't need to worry about latency for the FoH sound that much. But you need to take care about latency, when doing monitors (especially InEars) from the foh desk as well. Do not use DAW return signals as monitor sends because of the latency. Just saying.
Ok, if you take care, you can enjoy the enhanced mixing powers coming from your DAW!
It is almost like cheating:)

I made a crappy video, how I set up my DAW (Presonus Studio One) for using plugins together with my X32. Watch on your own risk - bad English:)

X32 VSTpluginFINAL - YouTube

Anyway, maybe some of you are already using VST Plugs with the X32 and I'm very curious, how you manage this topic!?!
Ideas, opinions, setup advices - keep them coming!

Christian
 
Re: How to use VST Plugins live with your X32!?!

Flamming/comb filtering would only be present if you mix a delayed signal with the same source, not a different source.

How does SAC handle latency vs. monitoring?
 
Re: How to use VST Plugins live with your X32!?!

Flamming/comb filtering would only be present if you mix a delayed signal with the same source, not a different source.
Click to expand...
correct, but this is what I normally do. F.e. I mix the clean DI Bass with one hi&low cutted and distorted Bass sound, when mixing rock shows. And if anything should go wrong with the DAW signals, I already can switch on the fly to the original input.

The SAC way is simple. Any Plugin, that would cause latency is automatically bypassed! Which leads us to another possible pitfall when working live with VST plugin. Some Plugins create latencies on their own! So, be carefull what Plugins you are using!! F.e. Drumagog5 in Live Mode (what I use), will a another 2Samples latencies...but there are other Plugins (like linear phase EQs) that can add about 1000 Samples or more. Thankfully there are a lot plugins out there, that are working in realtime.

Concerning Waves Plugins, they have a Plugin latency chart on their website.

Christian
 
Re: How to use VST Plugins live with your X32!?!

Robert Lofgren said:
Flamming/comb filtering would only be present if you mix a delayed signal with the same source, not a different source.
Click to expand...
If the signals are identical then the relative phase interactions and the resulting effects are the same all the time. If the signals are different the interactions still happen as do any resulting relative phase effects but they will vary as the signals vary from one another. So you may not get trasitional combfiltering or flanging but you will still get some interactions and the more similar the signals, the closer it will resemble combfiltering or flanging.

Christian Boche said:
If you don't mix original mic inputs and DAW returns, and go only with the DAW sound, than you don't need to worry about latency for the FoH sound that much.
Click to expand...
Except that they 'lag' the non processed signals by 9ms. Think of this in terms of flown speakers, if you add 9ms to any latency already existing in the system then how high can you fly anything before any spill on stage starts being sufficiently delayed from the natural sound the performers hear that it is a problem?
 
Re: How to use VST Plugins live with your X32!?!

Hey Christian,
I have done quite a few things like what you describe, all though not on the X32 yet, so sorry for not beeing able to be more specific.
I find that I want to be in a latency "window" of about 3-4ms max. That kind of gives around a 1,3 mtr of "physical delay". I like to think about it in keeping it in like the distance from the Kick or snare to OH. I find that gives a little more freedom, like processing the kick/snare but not the OH, so you "mess up" the timing but now they are at least "aligned" to the OH. The distance from the Lead vocal to the DRkit or Backline(line), could also define the max.

What I have found is that unless I can run a sample rate at 96hkz the latency will be to great for it to work in most instances (like 90pct of my gigs, from speaker on a stick to Arena). So if only 48kzh able? (don't know the X32) I would stay with just reverb/delays. All though there are plenty instances where a 9ms lag but better processed is an improvement, but off cause also a lot of time where its makes it worse. What im saying is just, be prepared to have a backup plan.

Buffer size at 64 is good, don't go lower.

Besides sample rate, the host you decide to run your plugins on will have a great effect on latency too. I have measured up to 4 ms difference in running the same plug in, between Waves multirack, Logic, Abelton live, Protools, Garageband, Audio desk, Cuebase etc.

There are also a huge difference in latency from plugin to plugin, its worth searching out what gets the job done with the least latency, there are more than enough plugins to choose from out there.

I prefere to run the plugins on groups not directly on the channels, IMO it makes it easier to bypass, I just have to keep track on how to bypass the insert on the group on different consoles. Also be aware of gain structure, its very easy to get confused. I find it very important to setup so I can bypass the different plugins with out dramatic level loss or gain, makes it much easier to compare and "fail safe". Its easier said than done, in the studio 12db of compression or makeup gain is just done, in Live we have headroom and feedback issues that normally don't allow that freedom. So some of the meters and knobs respond a bit quite dramatic.

Unless Im touring with a band an have plenty of time to communicate with them, I will not send the processed channels to the monitors. I want to be free a FOH to experiment, and not having the xtra stress of latency issues on stage.

As for mixing processed inputs with straight through, don't do it in the console. Either find a host that has Latency compensation and can split the channel in there and make your processed vs non processed mix in there. Or Split the channel in the Plug in host and use a delay plugin to compensate the best you can. If you want to do parallel compression find some plugins that can do that (mix the compressed signal with the dry), again so you don't have to double buss. IMO its much easier to keep all the processing at the Plug in Host, not on the console , in a stressed situation you could quickly forget the 9ms on the console channel, and send it somewhere wrong.

I strongly recommend that you setup,test and measure you setup before gig. Its can be really time consuming to trouble shoot at gig. And the more you know about your setup the more flexible you can be.
Have fun and keep experimenting!
/R
 
Re: How to use VST Plugins live with your X32!?!

Hi Christian,
I have messed with this a bit, but found it to be too much hassle regarding use for things like drum replacement, compression, or other latency-sensitive applications. No problem for verbs and related FX.

I have found that the FX built in the X32 are pretty good, the transient plugin helps poor bass drums, the comps are OK, the verbs are nice, etc - certainly much better than I expected.

I similarly could not get stable performance with under 9ms of overall system latency. If I could cut this down to about half of that, I might pursue it further, but for now I have opted to live without this.
 
Re: How to use VST Plugins live with your X32!?!

I agree, it is a bit of hassle but at least in a fixed band enviroment the possebilites are tempting. Concering latency, I couldn't got lower than 64 Samples on my MBP. But on my SAC desktop PC it runs stable with 48 Samples, but I don't want to carry around this 4U Rack PC around or invest in a modern windows laptop. My old Asus laptops and T60 Thinkpads can't go lower than 72 Samples...Anyway, like you said: If like to FX on the X32 also very much and I would use only three or four special plugins.
Christian
 
Re: How to use VST Plugins live with your X32!?!

I have found the comps in the X32 to be very useful. Only done 5 shows but the available controls along with the side chain ability seems to give me a lot of good sounding options. Compared to the comps on say an MC7L, they are great.
 
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