Internal Bass Drum Mic

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Phil Lewandowski

Sophomore
Jan 11, 2011
123
0
16
Cleveland, OH
Hey All,

Just have a good drummer friend who is looking to mount a mic within his closed head bass drum. (since he has plenty of kits that are not closed, and would like to make mic'ing it convenient for the HE)


Right now he is leaning towards something like the Beta91a for the reason that it will be much less obtrusive to just mount it to the inside of the shell, than using the arm he has to mount a stand mounted mic inside it.

He is not going for a super hyped sound, but something that can be worked with, since he does know how to tune drums well so the HE would have a good starting place.


So just wanted to get your thoughts if you think this will work well, if there is anything he should be worried about, and if there were any other mics under $300 that would work much better for this application.


Thanks Much,
Phil
 
Re: Internal Bass Drum Mic

Thanks for the input guys,

Phil; He is planning to mount it to a sort of cushion underneath it, so do you think that will be enough to help with the vibrations?


Bennett; it seems like the reason he is leaning towards a boundary type mic is to avoid the clutter of a large mic, and apparatus and such in the bass drum. The reason being is he is getting a little older and this kit he just bought is becoming his "lightweight" kit when he has to lug it around himself. I have used a single original SM91 in 2 of his kits and with almost no EQ gotten very workable sound. (Maybe a 3dB boost below 100hz.) He tunes his kick drums to have a very round sound with lots of "round" thump so to say.

From the sounds of it, this newer beta91a is much closer to the original SM91 than the original beta91 was, so I like to hear that.

In that case are there any other boundary type mics that you would suggest over the Beta91a since he mentioned his first choice isn't trying to chase down a SM91.


Thanks much,

Phil

P.S. This isn't really "forever and ever," just looking for a convenient, lightweight, and non-obtrusive way to get a decent sounding mic in there.
 
Re: Internal Bass Drum Mic

Phil,

The 91a can get a great kick sound, out of a well tuned kick. Just nobody seems to believe it ;) And of course, the kick must actually be well tuned. Most kick mics are designed to mitigate the response of a shittily tuned kick, if you can't get your drum to sounds good with a D6 you're doing something very wrong. A Beta 91a may require some significant EQ to sound "right" to modern engineers... and of course a kick isn't a kick isn't a kick. Depends on style. When you say round sound with lots of thump I start to have nightmares, though. He doesn't have one of those goddamn "KickPort" things, does he?

I've always wanted to give this product a try: http://resotune.com/ I bet it's worth its weight in gold.
 
Re: Internal Bass Drum Mic

Bennett Prescott said:
Phil,

The 91a can get a great kick sound, out of a well tuned kick. Just nobody seems to believe it ;) And of course, the kick must actually be well tuned. Most kick mics are designed to mitigate the response of a shittily tuned kick, if you can't get your drum to sounds good with a D6 you're doing something very wrong. A Beta 91a may require some significant EQ to sound "right" to modern engineers... and of course a kick isn't a kick isn't a kick. Depends on style. When you say round sound with lots of thump I start to have nightmares, though. He doesn't have one of those goddamn "KickPort" things, does he?

I've always wanted to give this product a try: http://resotune.com/ I bet it's worth its weight in gold.
Click to expand...


Are you winking or do you have something in your eye??????
 
Re: Internal Bass Drum Mic

Philip LaDue said:
A solid mount on a cushion?
Click to expand...

He is thinking more of some sort of thin cushion (heading towards an actual drum cushion but also like a thinner square piece of foam which I place my SM91 on right now) attached to the shell with lots of heavy duty velcro and lots of heavy duty velcro attached to the bottom of the boundary mic.

He is not super worried about the mic staying put since he is the only one that will be moving and using this kit and he babies his drums like none other when moving or using them.


Thanks,
Phil
 
Re: Internal Bass Drum Mic

Bennett Prescott said:
Depends on style. When you say round sound with lots of thump I start to have nightmares, though.
Click to expand...

You know I couldn't explain the sound as well as he could, as what he means by round could be totally different what you describe as round. But he is a 40 year old jazz drummer at heart and trained in that first from what he's hinted at, but since drums are his baby as he has never been married and with no kids, this is his full-time gig and because he had to go where the money, he has done stuff for the past 15 years all over the board now with wedding dance bands doing Top 40 dance/pop, country bands, blues, funk, classic rock, metal, jazz, etc. So he is versatile and is definitely a drummer that plays with some of the most "touch and feel" I've seen and lets the drums do the work by not banging away at them, but stressing technique. (I have felt lucky to have him as my drum tech teacher)

Bennett Prescott said:
He doesn't have one of those goddamn "KickPort" things, does he?
Click to expand...

He doesn't use any kickport things; all he has, if anything, in his bass drums is a small drum pillow that is meant to sit on the bottom of the shell on velcro inside and slightly leans up against the front head.

Actually an old sound guy friend of mine who owns a mid-size company here, who sends work my way, was over at this drummer's house to hear this new kick drum, and with no dampening was very impressed and swore it had some sort of dampening somewhere, when it had none. (Of course this is the guy that will spend 3-5 hours in his basement tuning a new drum...its his baby and he is very picky on the tone he is going for and wants it just right, which is a very good thing. Makes mixing his IEM lots of fun when he can hear so many minute things in the sound and tone when I have to strain myself to pick some of these things out...whatcha gonna do with a drummer that cares ;) )


Bennett Prescott said:
Phil,

The 91a can get a great kick sound, out of a well tuned kick. Just nobody seems to believe it ;) And of course, the kick must actually be well tuned. Most kick mics are designed to mitigate the response of a shittily tuned kick, if you can't get your drum to sounds good with a D6 you're doing something very wrong. A Beta 91a may require some significant EQ to sound "right" to modern engineers... and of course a kick isn't a kick isn't a kick. Depends on style.
Yeah, as I mentioned I have not had any problems getting real nice sound out of the SM91 placed inside 2 of his bass drums.
Click to expand...

As I mentioned, I haven't had any issues with getting very useable sound out of 2 of his kick drums with just a SM91 inside. I use a D6 out front that he likes better in his IEM, but the D6 is a touch to boomy for the combination of his kick drum. (My guess is because he tunes the drums to sound good naturally the super-EQ'ed response of the D6 might exaggerate it a touch too much.)

Maybe it is because of his jazz training that his tuning is more towards a full tone of a jazz bass drum? Most of his bass drums have a pretty short decay, and just have a very beefy and full thump. Compared to some kick drums that I hear that are mostly click. He gets a nice balance of thump and kick with the drum acoustically.

As you mentioned, I could imagine some engineers really over-doing it with EQ on the Beta91a, but as I mentioned I rarely (maybe 2 or 3 times) use over 3dB of EQ with my SM91 in the 2 years I've been working with him.


Thanks Much,
Phil
 
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Re: Internal Bass Drum Mic

Is the goal here to get a consistent drum sound, make the sound guy du jour's life easier, or a bit of both?

The fact that the drum has no hole in the resonant head shouldn't matter to any competent HE, especially if the drum is well tuned. And a decent mic (note: not one of the modern "pre-EQ'd" beasts) on a banquet stand will probably be a more realistic sound than an internal mic, with the added benefit of being easier to work with (and less trouble when something goes wrong). Half the battle I've found with kick mics is getting the proper stand and mic placement, and don't discount micing the batter head.
 
Re: Internal Bass Drum Mic

Rob Timmerman said:
Is the goal here to get a consistent drum sound, make the sound guy du jour's life easier, or a bit of both?

The fact that the drum has no hole in the resonant head shouldn't matter to any competent HE, especially if the drum is well tuned. And a decent mic (note: not one of the modern "pre-EQ'd" beasts) on a banquet stand will probably be a more realistic sound than an internal mic, with the added benefit of being easier to work with (and less trouble when something goes wrong). Half the battle I've found with kick mics is getting the proper stand and mic placement, and don't discount micing the batter head.
Click to expand...

+1 on this. I would think one of the reasons for having this drum in addition to the others is a "different sound for a different style". Almost all the big band drummers I've worked with have had two solid heads on the bass drum. I have no problem miking them from the outside.
 
Re: Internal Bass Drum Mic

Rob Timmerman said:
Is the goal here to get a consistent drum sound, make the sound guy du jour's life easier, or a bit of both?

The fact that the drum has no hole in the resonant head shouldn't matter to any competent HE, especially if the drum is well tuned. And a decent mic (note: not one of the modern "pre-EQ'd" beasts) on a banquet stand will probably be a more realistic sound than an internal mic, with the added benefit of being easier to work with (and less trouble when something goes wrong). Half the battle I've found with kick mics is getting the proper stand and mic placement, and don't discount micing the batter head.
Click to expand...

The main goal of this kit now is he was looking for a light and small kit, of course assuming a great sounding quality kit as well, that he could easily tote back and forth to gigs when he doesn't have a roadie.

He also would like a kit with a closed front head for his jazz gigs he does, so this seemed like the perfect kit as it is over 30% lighter than his main Yamaha Beech, Birch, and Maple kits he gigs.

IIRC, the main reason for the internal mic is to keep it consistent since the gigs that he will use this kit at will not be at the most well-endowed clubs gear and engineer wise. (Although could be much worse.

So to answer your question, I'd say a bit of both.

----

I definitely agree with you about mics and mic'ing techniques for closed front head drums and I am sure it would not be to hard at all to get a good sound mic'ing the front and/or back heads of this bass drum. And I think this all goes back to the first question to make things all around easier for sound guy du jour and hopefully to keep his IEM mix a touch more consistent.

Thanks,
Phil
 
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Re: Internal Bass Drum Mic

If he is determined to use an internal mic, and if cost isn't a big concern, then he should go with the May (miking with a k, sez them) system, as JR mentioned.

Everyone else is correct about a hole-less resonant head not being a big negative concern for external micing, especially if this is for typical jazz stage volumes, but if he wants internal, and if he wants high quality, he should go with the May.

http://www.dwdrums.com/may/
 
Re: Internal Bass Drum Mic

John Norris said:
If he is determined to use an internal mic, and if cost isn't a big concern, then he should go with the May (miking with a k, sez them) system, as JR mentioned.

Everyone else is correct about a hole-less resonant head not being a big negative concern for external micing, especially if this is for typical jazz stage volumes, but if he wants internal, and if he wants high quality, he should go with the May.

http://www.dwdrums.com/may/
Click to expand...

Thanks, he is following along with this thread and e-mailed me and mentioned, "I am a May endorser, and have a no drill "AVC" kit here at the house. I'd just rather avoid putting all that crap inside my bass drum if possible."


The main reason is to save every single ounce of weight that he can, and also to keep the mic as low profile as possible. If at all possible he wants to keep away from putting or making any holes in the shell of the drum.

Most of his jazz gigs will probably be small enough that it won't be even mic'ed, but it is rather when he does some of the other slightly heavier type of music (course not going to be doing hard rock or metal, etc with kit, but it will be used with the one wedding cover dance band I mentioned) with this kit and runs it through a system with a little more stage volume.


Thanks,
Phil
 
Re: Internal Bass Drum Mic

A ringing endorsement, indeed!


Obviously, the problem of having an unmounted mic like a 91 inside the kick is one of access, so one can ensure that the mic is positioned properly after load-in. And having a hole in the head gives one that access.
 
Re: Internal Bass Drum Mic

Hey Phil,

I'm inclined to say stick with external miking. I think it's just a matter of finding the sweet spot and then getting him to position the mic in the same spot each time. You could go with a shorty stand or a clamp of some sort - maybe an LP Claw, Shure A56D, or Audix DFLEX with a Heil PR-40 or Beyerdynamic M-88?

Either way, if he tunes his drums like you say he does, I'm sure each lug has a name. See where the best tone/isolation ratio is and then make a note for that spot: "Place mic between Harry and Sue, 2 inches from the head, and at a 45-degree angle" (or whatever it happens to be that works best).
 
Re: Internal Bass Drum Mic

I've used a B91 secured with velcro succcessfully for years. Never had anybody at a gig complain, or even comment about the sound of the kick drum. Hovever, I've had several members of the audience with opinions about guitar and vocal sound.
 
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