Lab Gruppen PLM Presets Help

J

Jason Misterka

Sophomore
Mar 10, 2011
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Sooooo....

Over the last year we have transitioned all of our Turbosound rigs over to PLM amps and mostly it has gone very well. Very powerful, sound great, factory presets, Lake control, etc etc.

But I can't seem to lick one part. Any PLM pros on here?

We have three flavors of mains and two types of subwoofers, which we occasionally use in various combinations. Add in the convenience of using a PLM, and the Lake, for a front fill or a stray wedge, and we are talking about 50 or 60 presets.

Using a tablet, I can make the amp be any of our combinations of speaker boxes. But I obviously want to save the configurations, including the amplifier routing, to the amp to be able to make front panel selection for use without a tablet.

I know how to save a FRAME PRESET to the amp, which is exactly what I need to do. I also know how to use the PRESET MANAGER to copy the saved presets from one amplifier to the other 16 amplifiers.

Here is the problem I am having. When I open a FRAME PRESET on an amplifier, the FRAME NAME of the amplifier I am loading it on changes to the FRAME NAME of the amplifier that I created it on.

It is crucial that the FRAME NAMES remain static so I know which physical amplifier I am working with on the tablet. All of our FRAME NAMES indicate the exact amplifier in the exact amp rack so you also know which amp you are working with.

Obviously I am missing something. They can't expect you to write new presets for every single amplifier only on the amplifier that you will be saving it to. That's what the PRESET MANAGER is for, right? I know on the PRESET MANAGER you can rename the frame, but that only lasts until you reload another preset. It doesn't modify it in all the presets.

Or maybe the FRAME NAME is not supposed to be the unique identifier for each amp? If not, what IS, and how do I see it when I am looking at a normal layout, and adjusting things, etc?

Also, is there a way to write a FRAME PRESET using a virtual amplifier module, so it doesn't take the FRAME NAME of an amplifier? This would be helpful for other reasons. I looked around and it did not seem to be the case.

Thanks for your help!
Jason
 
Re: Lab Gruppen PLM Presets Help

Jason Misterka said:
Sooooo....

Over the last year we have transitioned all of our Turbosound rigs over to PLM amps and mostly it has gone very well. Very powerful, sound great, factory presets, Lake control, etc etc.

But I can't seem to lick one part. Any PLM pros on here?

We have three flavors of mains and two types of subwoofers, which we occasionally use in various combinations. Add in the convenience of using a PLM, and the Lake, for a front fill or a stray wedge, and we are talking about 50 or 60 presets.

Using a tablet, I can make the amp be any of our combinations of speaker boxes. But I obviously want to save the configurations, including the amplifier routing, to the amp to be able to make front panel selection for use without a tablet.

I know how to save a FRAME PRESET to the amp, which is exactly what I need to do. I also know how to use the PRESET MANAGER to copy the saved presets from one amplifier to the other 16 amplifiers.

Here is the problem I am having. When I open a FRAME PRESET on an amplifier, the FRAME NAME of the amplifier I am loading it on changes to the FRAME NAME of the amplifier that I created it on.

It is crucial that the FRAME NAMES remain static so I know which physical amplifier I am working with on the tablet. All of our FRAME NAMES indicate the exact amplifier in the exact amp rack so you also know which amp you are working with.

Obviously I am missing something. They can't expect you to write new presets for every single amplifier only on the amplifier that you will be saving it to. That's what the PRESET MANAGER is for, right? I know on the PRESET MANAGER you can rename the frame, but that only lasts until you reload another preset. It doesn't modify it in all the presets.

Or maybe the FRAME NAME is not supposed to be the unique identifier for each amp? If not, what IS, and how do I see it when I am looking at a normal layout, and adjusting things, etc?

Also, is there a way to write a FRAME PRESET using a virtual amplifier module, so it doesn't take the FRAME NAME of an amplifier? This would be helpful for other reasons. I looked around and it did not seem to be the case.

Thanks for your help!
Jason
Click to expand...

You should mail Labgruppen to get the right answer, but what I know you can't name the AMP, only the frame preset. Last time i checked was september. Its a pain, there is a work around but can't remember it on top of my head, i will get back to you. I think we did it by making a folder structure of all the amps in the preset manager. Then you can copy paste your preset to all the amps folders and then rename it and then up load to the amps. So you can say you don't have one amp you clone, you have to manage each amp.
mvh
Rasmus
 
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Re: Lab Gruppen PLM Presets Help

Hi Jason,

One thing that might help you.

Pressing the SEL button on the Lake Contour or the ME button on a Dolby Lake Processor module allows the identification of the module on the main work area of the Lake controller (Home), and on the module scoll bar (if on the Modules page). And so after loading a preset directly in the DLP, the module can be quickly found in the controller and the module or frame renamed using the controller.

I suspect the PLM behaves similarly when pressing the ME button, but I can't find it in the documentation right now.

In large systems with many modules on the controller work area, this is a god-send.

Best,
Michael
 
Re: Lab Gruppen PLM Presets Help

Section 7.1.3 in the PLM Series Operation Manual. "Highlighting a Module in the Lake Controller software via the PLM."

It is sometimes useful to identify which Module icon/s in the Lake Controller software are associated with a particular hardware Frame. To highlight the module in the Lake Controller software:
1. Ensure Meter Mode is selected
2. Press the button adjacent to the Module description on the LCD
If the Frame is online, but the Module is not in the work area, the selected Module will be centred on the Module scroll bar (assuming the Modules Menu is selected in the Lake Controller).
 
Re: Lab Gruppen PLM Presets Help

Michael Smithers said:
Section 7.1.3 in the PLM Series Operation Manual. "Highlighting a Module in the Lake Controller software via the PLM."

It is sometimes useful to identify which Module icon/s in the Lake Controller software are associated with a particular hardware Frame. To highlight the module in the Lake Controller software:
1. Ensure Meter Mode is selected
2. Press the button adjacent to the Module description on the LCD
If the Frame is online, but the Module is not in the work area, the selected Module will be centred on the Module scroll bar (assuming the Modules Menu is selected in the Lake Controller).
Click to expand...



I will try this tip, I can see it being useful when adding the modules to the work area if they aren't already in there. But I'm still looking for a proper and discrete naming scheme even once items are in the work area...

Thanks -
Jason
 
Re: Lab Gruppen PLM Presets Help

Rasmus Rosenberg said:
You should mail Labgruppen to get the right answer, but what I know you can't name the AMP, only the frame preset. Last time i checked was september. Its a pain, there is a work around but can't remember it on top of my head, i will get back to you. I think we did it by making a folder structure of all the amps in the preset manager. Then you can copy paste your preset to all the amps folders and then rename it and then up load to the amps. So you can say you don't have one amp you clone, you have to manage each amp.
mvh
Rasmus
Click to expand...

Thanks, Rasmus -

If you find that work around, drop me a line. I'm managing ok now loading items module by module but when the summer here hits, these presets need to be locked in so a tired, brainless me doesn't destroy a PA system or two with the dumb move of a stylus...

Jason
 
Re: Lab Gruppen PLM Presets Help

Hi Jason,

I understand what you're trying to do. I think the usage scenario envisaged for the presets was that the Frame Names NOT be static and locked to an amp.

If I recall correctly, in a pool of amps (or DLP's/Contours) on a tour, the unique name of an amp is not important. What is important is its purpose. For example if the amp for the left FOH goes down, another amp can take it's place simply by re-patching the physical cabling and loading the left FOH preset. And if the replacement amp needs to be put into SuperModules or groups, or set to receive Dante, it can be easily found in the controller using the method described above.

I'll try and remember to check next week with our guys who worked on the controller before the handover to Lab Gruppen.

Best,
Michael
 
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Re: Lab Gruppen PLM Presets Help

Michael Smithers said:
Hi Jason,

I understand what you're trying to do. I think the usage scenario envisaged for the presets was that the Frame Names NOT be static and locked to an amp.

If I recall correctly, in a pool of amps (or DLP's/Contours) on a tour, the unique name of an amp is not important. What is important is its purpose. For example if the amp for the left FOH goes down, another amp can take it's place simply by re-patching the physical cabling and loading the left FOH preset. And if the replacement amp needs to be put into SuperModules or groups, or set to receive Dante, it can be easily found in the controller using the method described above.

I'll try and remember to check next week with our guys who worked on the controller before the handover to Lab Gruppen.

Best,
Michael
Click to expand...




I think that is a difference between the needs of a touring PA which is the same rig every night in a different venue, and what a regional company provides. We have 5 racks with multiple PLM amps in them, three different flavors of PA mains, two different subs, not to mention SOS options for corporate work. When we setup in an arena with all the racks, of course we would need to know what amplifier is in what rack when we are using the software. The reason we went this route in the first place was to have our amps be able to "be" anything and the racks become interchangeable :)

I appreciate any advice or info that you find out. Until we bought the PLM amps a year ago, I never used Lake software only QSControl stuff. It can be fairly complex to wrap your head around all the possibilities and the quirks, that is why I had figured it was something I was messing up...

Also, a little birdie just told me that they may be making an adjustment to this situation in the next software release.

Thanks,
Jason
 
Re: Lab Gruppen PLM Presets Help

Jason Misterka said:
... I appreciate any advice or info that you find out. .....

Also, a little birdie just told me that they may be making an adjustment to this situation in the next software release.

Thanks,
Jason
Click to expand...

Hi Jason,

I spoke with the guy who wrote the preset manager tool. Presets are geared around hot swapping. He said you first decide on all the different functions/roles your amps might take, make a frame preset for each function/role, then load all frame presets into all the amps. We're not aware of Lab changing this, but of course they can add whatever features they'd like to.

[Also I'm told, since Dante routing is related to the frame name, hot swapping a bad amp for a good amp by loading a frame preset means that even the Dante audio will continue.]

Earlier you mentioned,
Jason Misterka said:
I will try this tip, I can see it being useful when adding the modules to the work area if they aren't already in there. But I'm still looking for a proper and discrete naming scheme even once items are in the work area...
Click to expand...
Frames in the work area can be found in seconds by either a) pressing the buttons (described above) on the amp and seeing which module in the work area gets selected, or b) selecting modules on the work area and following which amp's white light shines brightly.

My apologies. Contrary to my previous comment, I'm not sure I now understand why the amp name is important. Sorry if I'm being daft....

Is it that if you are creating a work area and can't see the amps, you don't know which amp is performing which function? Can you not just confirm the work controller work area when you're in front of the amps and changing the presets? When I setup the PLM's (either at home or on site) for the small events I do, I'm carrying the tablet and standing at the amps. Once I've set up the controller work area, I rarely need to see the amps again.

Best,
Michael
 
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Re: Lab Gruppen PLM Presets Help

Jason Misterka said:
Thanks, Rasmus -

If you find that work around, drop me a line. I'm managing ok now loading items module by module but when the summer here hits, these presets need to be locked in so a tired, brainless me doesn't destroy a PA system or two with the dumb move of a stylus...

Jason
Click to expand...

BTW: Have you tried password locking the modules? I set the crossovers and EQ pages to view only, fix the limiters, and reduce the gain ranges of the output gains. On the rare occasion that I lend the system out, no-one can make changes other than adjusting the input gain and adding EQ overlays directly or via groups. Also, when the show's running, the controller can be switched into "show mode." EQ's and gains become much less sensitive, and PA destroying functions are disabled.
 
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Re: Lab Gruppen PLM Presets Help

Michael Smithers said:
BTW: Have you tried password locking the modules? I set the crossovers and EQ pages to view only, fix the limiters, and reduce the gain ranges of the output gains. On the rare occasion that I lend the system out, no-one can make changes other than adjusting the input gain and adding EQ overlays directly or via groups. Also, when the show's running, the controller can be switched into "show mode." EQ's and gains become much less sensitive, and PA destroying functions are disabled.
Click to expand...


I'm not worried about blowing up PAs when the show is running. I'm worried about loading modules one at a time, instead of presets, since the amplifier routing must be set as well. I don't want to pop all my HF by accidently feeding it subwoofer.

Jason
 
Re: Lab Gruppen PLM Presets Help

Michael Smithers said:
Hi Jason,

I spoke with the guy who wrote the preset manager tool. Presets are geared around hot swapping. He said you first decide on all the different functions/roles your amps might take, make a frame preset for each function/role, then load all frame presets into all the amps. We're not aware of Lab changing this, but of course they can add whatever features they'd like to.

[Also I'm told, since Dante routing is related to the frame name, hot swapping a bad amp for a good amp by loading a frame preset means that even the Dante audio will continue.]
Click to expand...


Michael -I know why I want to use presets. I never said Lab is changing what presets do, just that there MAY be a way to keep the FRAME NAME static throughout presets.



Michael Smithers said:
Earlier you mentioned,

Frames in the work area can be found in seconds by either a) pressing the buttons (described above) on the amp and seeing which module in the work area gets selected, or b) selecting modules on the work area and following which amp's white light shines brightly.

My apologies. Contrary to my previous comment, I'm not sure I now understand why the amp name is important. Sorry if I'm being daft....

Is it that if you are creating a work area and can't see the amps, you don't know which amp is performing which function? Can you not just confirm the work controller work area when you're in front of the amps and changing the presets? When I setup the PLM's (either at home or on site) for the small events I do, I'm carrying the tablet and standing at the amps. Once I've set up the controller work area, I rarely need to see the amps again.

Best,
Michael
Click to expand...


I know about the white light, and I know I need to walk more, but I was hoping to be able to program the system at the FOH console for most things. Walking back and forth around the arena, especially in a time crunch, doesn't sound like much fun.

For ground stack PA systems, I don't have much issue with this, what is what is obvious.

But when using the PLMs for 4-5 main array zones per side, 2-3 outfill array zones per side, numerous sub array zones, and possibly 2 front fill zones (inside and outside, etc), it gets a little confusing to me. I guess I'm weird, but I sure would like to sit at FOH and know that what I am touching is what I think I'm touching.

Also - maybe this is the problem with my process? I don't build a work area each show. I have a standard work area already populated with ALL of our amplifiers. That way I don't have to drag those boxes around over and over again. When I am at a gig and the amplifier is not on the network, it just stays dark.

I also often prepare the show in advance at home or on the truck drive up. I don't want to have to make a bunch of virtual amp racks and copy/paste/replace upon arrival. I just build it in my default work area already populated with our amp racks, and then upon network connection to the amp racks, I tell the amps to use the computer data.

It also allows me to use the groups to do my shading, delay, EQ, etc for alignments. When I return to the venue, I load the correct venue on the controller. If I don't have the exact same amp rack with me, I simply re-populate the groups with the amplifiers that are present and performing the tasks for each zone. Maybe there is a better way to do that as well, but it works for me... It also works for hot swapping since all I have to do is load the preset and apply the amp to the correct group. Should not have anything to do with what I would NAME the amp :)


Maybe I am approaching this wrong but I have spent a long time trying to figure out how the PLM amplifiers & Lake work within the boundaries of how we use them. I came from using fP6400 amps and XTA processors for one system and QSC PL3 amps and Basis with QSControl for another. This is really unlike either of those worlds.

Jason
 
Re: Lab Gruppen PLM Presets Help

Hi Jason,

My apologies; I let this thread slip my mind. In short, I don't have any more suggestions - sorry. Your approach/process seems fine to me, within the confines of the existing Lake software.

From this and other threads, I think the main issue is that the Lake workflow is challenging for systems that are constantly changing, and then (as you say) requires more walking around to check what amp racks are being used and where. It's seems to work better for systems where there may be a detailed setup phase (pre tour), but after that, the racks & patching stay static for sometime. And I agree - in the constantly changing context, an amp name would be helpful.

Best,
Michael
 
Re: Lab Gruppen PLM Presets Help

Yes! Mainly, love most everything about these amps and the processing. But the software is just plain hard to wrap your head around and in some instances just plain makes it hard to get where you want to go!
 
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