Need some ideas for a new church system in a weird space

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weshunter

Freshman
Mar 11, 2014
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Hi - noobie here with some probably noob questions I'm hoping y'all can help with.

I'm setting up sound for my church which is a new church and just moving into our space in April. I will be buying all the sound equipment as we have none, except we'll be using my SL 16.0.2 mixer in the short term.

I just found out today that we're going to be setting up in a weird way. The room is a long, narrow rectangle and we're setting up against one of the long walls in the middle. It will seat about 100 ppl, I'm guessing it's about 20 by 80 or so with about 11 foot ceilings.

My original plan was to get 2 Mackie DLM12's for mains (and a QSC K-sub) and fly the mackies right next to each other in stereo but now that we're setting up with such a large area to cover parallel to the stage front, that won't really work.

Should I consider a couple of the bose L1's as mains (and monitors)? If i do that, I'm thinking I'll skip the boss bass modules and just stick with the k-sub. We will be running v drums and direct bass and guitars - no stage volume - so I need some punch. I'll be running sound from stage myself along with leading the band and doing some speaking, so the setup needs to be as easy to use as possible.

If not the bose stuff, any other ideas? Put another Mackie in the middle on the mono out maybe and stick with in ears for monitors? The bose would be a lot easier than that but I don't know how they'd work with the external subs and I think I want more punch from the bass and kick than those bass modules are going to give me unless I get 5 or 6.

Sorry for the long first post, but I'm having a hard time figuring out what to do.
 
Re: Need some ideas for a new church system in a weird space

Hello


Being in the middle of long wall has the advantage, that audience is closer - nobody is in the back of long hall - so you should have better clarity, if you place speakers right.

Forget stereo - run everything in mono.
 
Thanks - what would be the correct speaker placement?

And I'd like to preserve some sense of stereo field if at all possible since I don't have anything producing it's own stage volume. Is that just not a reasonable option in a space like mine?
 
Re: Need some ideas for a new church system in a weird space

weshunter said:
Thanks - what would be the correct speaker placement?

And I'd like to preserve some sense of stereo field if at all possible since I don't have anything producing it's own stage volume. Is that just not a reasonable option in a space like mine?
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The problem with trying to "produce a stereo field" in a wide room is that generally you can only do it in the middle. Since most of the people are off to the sides-they do not get the stereo image and only hear part of the sound.

In most cases mono is simply better. Boring as it is-it simply works better-in most cases. Unless all you are concerned with is the center area.

It can be done-with a crosso matrixed type system-but that is expensive and takes skill/knowledge and specalized speakers to be able to pull off correctly.
 
Re: Need some ideas for a new church system in a weird space

that does make sense. any value in doing something like putting a bose L1 in the middle for monitor and fill and using the left and right mains in stereo?

I guess I could try it and then if it doesn't work I could just pan everything to the middle, it's not like the stereo vs mono decision has to
 
Re: Need some ideas for a new church system in a weird space

weshunter said:
that does make sense. any value in doing something like putting a bose L1 in the middle for monitor and fill and using the left and right mains in stereo?

I guess I could try it and then if it doesn't work I could just pan everything to the middle, it's not like the stereo vs mono decision has to
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Run, RUN away from Bose. This is not pro audio gear, it's a glorified guitar amp. Get reasonable speakers like Yamaha DSR112s that are modern, full-range, and sound good. For 100 people, a pair will be a great start, and they will be flexible for when your needs change.

As Ivan said, you can't have any kind of real stereo coverage unless the majority of the listening area is covered by both L+R at nearly the same levels. Even if you point two speakers at a seating section, your distance to the speakers will be variable, and therefore you will always hear the box you're closer to dominantly.

Is your space really 20X80? That seems implausible.
 
Re: Need some ideas for a new church system in a weird space

TJ Cornish said:
Is your space really 20X80? That seems implausible.
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you're right -- now that i'm back at work and have the blueprint i can see that the space we'll actually be using is more like 25x50.

Are those Yamahas better than the Mackie DLM12's?
 
Re: Need some ideas for a new church system in a weird space

If you really want to run stereo may I suggest something I tried once that worked in a layout like you describe. I have used what could be called reverse center channel or LCR mixing but completely backwards (CLRC if you will). I ran a normal left right stage toe in and on the outside of that a mono facing away from the center next to the left and right channels. I used the center out to bring up the sides with stereo in the center. I though I would get cancelation city but since the mono and left were close those seated in that area were getting a pseudo stereo image and it was pretty cool. Those at the extreme left and right did not miss anything and those in the center were loving it in stereo. And IMHO the Bose would work well in that size room. It is church and not an arena.
 
Re: Need some ideas for a new church system in a weird space

Glenn Adams said:
If you really want to run stereo may I suggest something I tried once that worked in a layout like you describe. I have used what could be called reverse center channel or LCR mixing but completely backwards (CLRC if you will). I ran a normal left right stage toe in and on the outside of that a mono facing away from the center next to the left and right channels. I used the center out to bring up the sides with stereo in the center. I though I would get cancelation city but since the mono and left were close those seated in that area were getting a pseudo stereo image and it was pretty cool. Those at the extreme left and right did not miss anything and those in the center were loving it in stereo.
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A simplified version of this is LRL or LRRL, depending on needed coverage.
Glenn Adams said:
And IMHO the Bose would work well in that size room. It is church and not an arena.
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What's your definition of "work well"? The stick thing sounds like crap, has poor low-end response, and is expensive. I have yet to see a situation where the L1 has any benefit over a conventional speaker.
 
My understanding of the bose thing is that you can put it behind you and it won't feedback so we wouldn't need any other monitors (since we aren't creating any volume with our instruments).

That was my reason for considering it. I also am getting a sub and would likely run a high passed signal into the bose anyway so I don't really care about low end.
 
Re: Need some ideas for a new church system in a weird space

weshunter said:
My understanding of the bose thing is that you can put it behind you and it won't feedback so we wouldn't need any other monitors (since we aren't creating any volume with our instruments).

That was my reason for considering it. I also am getting a sub and would likely run a high passed signal into the bose anyway so I don't really care about low end.
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The Bose's greatest feature is its marketing. I have not experienced particularly great gain before feedback with the Bose, particularly when used with multiple sources. If you are only running a single mic through the Bose and use their modeler, it works sort of passably.

In a room as wide as yours, you may very we'll end up putting the speakers side stage to get enough coverage width, and this may give you enough noise from the mains to work as monitors, at least to start out with.

Get real speakers - you will be much happier.
 
Re: Need some ideas for a new church system in a weird space

TJ Cornish said:
The Bose's greatest feature is its marketing. I have not experienced particularly great gain before feedback with the Bose, particularly when used with multiple sources. If you are only running a single mic through the Bose and use their modeler, it works sort of passably.

In a room as wide as yours, you may very we'll end up putting the speakers side stage to get enough coverage width, and this may give you enough noise from the mains to work as monitors, at least to start out with.

Get real speakers - you will be much happier.
Click to expand...

thanks, this is exactly what i needed to know.
 
Re: Need some ideas for a new church system in a weird space

weshunter said:
My understanding of the bose thing is that you can put it behind you and it won't feedback so we wouldn't need any other monitors (since we aren't creating any volume with our instruments).

That was my reason for considering it. I also am getting a sub and would likely run a high passed signal into the bose anyway so I don't really care about low end.
Click to expand...
Any speaker will not feedback with a mic in front of it. AS LONG you don't turn it up to loud.

Part of the reason that the L1 system "works" on stage is because the main axis is below mic height.

Of course this is really bad unless you are on a stage that is tall enough for the center of the speaker to be at the listeners ear height.

THAT is something they "forgot" to tell people.

If you are on a flat floor-the main axis is about waist high-not exactly ear height.
 
Well we will be on an elevated stage but I'm thinking the yamaha speakers will be a better buy after all the feedback here
 
Re: Need some ideas for a new church system in a weird space

weshunter said:
Well we will be on an elevated stage but I'm thinking the yamaha speakers will be a better buy after all the feedback here
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+1

Wise move. Don't get the Bose - meh sound, and certainly not good value for $.

I agree with TJ's suggestion - the Yamaha DSR 112s, with good stands, should work very well in your 25' x 50' space.
If you need a sub, the JBL PRX 718xlf is a good choice.
 
Re: Need some ideas for a new church system in a weird space

So basically… LRL, but with an extra wide R? I think I can get this, now...

and hey, is that SketchUp?
 
Re: Need some ideas for a new church system in a weird space

weshunter said:
My understanding of the bose thing is that you can put it behind you and it won't feedback so we wouldn't need any other monitors (since we aren't creating any volume with our instruments).

That was my reason for considering it. I also am getting a sub and would likely run a high passed signal into the bose anyway so I don't really care about low end.
Click to expand...

The Blose will feed back, too. Run away from anyone whose claim to fame is the lawsuits against negative reviews.
 
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