New B&C dual 15" design

Caleb Dueck

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Jan 11, 2011
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Big, heavy, and loud? It looks like it's designed for ease of build, and nice full-range response over any sort of compact-ness. Perfect for installations, except for lack of rigging, as expected for a DIY design.
 

Peter Morris

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May 8, 2011
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Big, heavy, and loud? It looks like it's designed for ease of build, and nice full-range response over any sort of compact-ness. Perfect for installations, except for lack of rigging, as expected for a DIY design.
I'm sure if size and weight are not an issue this will be a beautiful speaker, and I want a pair - but I also want B&C to release a smaller 90 degree version of this horn 15" wide for those projects that need a different compromise. :) There are lots of nice horns of a suitable size to match a 12" driver - B&C ME90, RCF HF950, Eighteen Sound XR1496 etc. but not many to match a 15" that provide good loading down to 600Hz or less.
 

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Oct 25, 2018
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It always surprises me how few sensibly-priced custom-made horns exist; with 3D printing so commonplace, and GRP being cheap, easy, and quick to work with. I am not a horn designer, but surely the profile does not have to be micron perfect...
 
It always surprises me how few sensibly-priced custom-made horns exist; with 3D printing so commonplace, and GRP being cheap, easy, and quick to work with. I am not a horn designer, but surely the profile does not have to be micron perfect...
Despite some of the hype, 3D printers big enough to print a useful horn in one pass are still relatively expensive. There are also some strength concerns, in particular with FDM, but those are typically solvable with proper part design. And part cost is a function of printing time and material type. That said, it's certainly possible, and if you have a 3D model of a design, there are a number of companies who will be happy to print it for you (Protolabs and Shapeways in the US come immediately to mind, but there are others).
 

Peter Morris

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Making the horn is the easy part, getting the shape right to achieve the desired pattern control over the operating range with minimum distortion and reflections etc. etc . etc. is the hard part, Its not a trivial exercise.
 
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Bennett Prescott

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There are lots of nice horns of a suitable size to match a 12" driver - B&C ME90, RCF HF950, Eighteen Sound XR1496 etc. but not many to match a 15" that provide good loading down to 600Hz or less.

I would also really like to do that, Peter! A 300Hz horn is a statement, a new 500Hz horn is a bit more practical. Would be nice to have to go with the eventual smaller DCX driver (shh).

The trick is that it can never be justified as a money making product. The ME464 has about 40 hours of engineering into it, plus two prototypes built section by section on the largest 3D printer we have access to and glued together - 5 parts in all. Then we had to choose a manufacturing process. A $100K tool would have let us make these out of an OK plastic for $20 or so each, 1000 at a time. If we thought we’d sell tens of thousands, no problem! Since we might sell 1000 ever I chose a process with 1/10 the mold cost and… much more part cost. But the material is really great, a very strong and well damped low pressure material. We could use the same process for a 15” version and it would be a similar cost, a little less but not a lot!
 

Peter Morris

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As I said above, I think the ME464, and this new design is fantastic. Its also great to see a company with such a passion for audio willing to put the engineering time into designing this product.

I do appreciate the time and the process with software like COMSOL etc .to design a new horn and the tooling costs.

FWIW this is what I have done with a horn of the size I mentioned plus a DCX464, 2 x B&C 14ndl88 and a couple of 21SW152's. On the left hand side you can see a large white 3D printed horn in the background that pre dates the ME464 :)
 

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Despite some of the hype, 3D printers big enough to print a useful horn in one pass are still relatively expensive. There are also some strength concerns, in particular with FDM, but those are typically solvable with proper part design. And part cost is a function of printing time and material type. That said, it's certainly possible, and if you have a 3D model of a design, there are a number of companies who will be happy to print it for you (Protolabs and Shapeways in the US come immediately to mind, but there are others).
I realise now that my original post was too vague. I should add that I intended for the master to be 3D printed either whole or as half a horn, from which a GRP mould could be easily taken to reproduce the finished horn itself in GRP.
 

Bennett Prescott

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I realise now that my original post was too vague. I should add that I intended for the master to be 3D printed either whole or as half a horn, from which a GRP mould could be easily taken to reproduce the finished horn itself in GRP.

That's how we did it, 3D printed the master and made a mould from it. Still cost somewhere between $10K and $20K dollars!
 
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Bennett Prescott

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FWIW this is what I have done with a horn of the size I mentioned plus a DCX464, 2 x B&C 14ndl88 and a couple of 21SW152's. On the left hand side you can see a large white 3D printed horn in the background that pre dates the ME464 :)

I hope you can clearly tell that your box was an inspiration, in many ways. Thanks, Peter!
 

Bennett Prescott

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Bennett, I've been eyeing off Peter's designs for a while, but I love the idea of big boxes that don't need separate subwoofers. I'd anticipate using them for modest outdoor parties with DJ/program material.. is there a particular use case these are aimed at?
I dunno, it's like when people ask me if the 18IPAL is good in a particular enclosure: It's the best woofer we can make, so yes? What would be better, less motor or a weaker cone or less suspension travel?

I wanted to build a box that could keep up with the DCX464 and have really nice pattern control to show off the ME464 horn. I was definitely thinking a bit of the outdoor party people who are building a lot of cool looking enclosures, chasing high SPL. It's a bit big for throw and go PA use, and I wouldn't touch flyware with a 10m pole, but it's not heavier than a KF650 (135 lbs) so just big by today's standards. You can tell how nicely it turned out given most of the listening portion of that video is filmed at the edge of the horn pattern! It's slightly arrayable, in that two wide would be ≈150°, and at that point there would probably be enough LF to keep up with the MF/HF. Most people will want a subwoofer anyway just to get that 30Hz, but I think of subwoofers as effects and I prefer the sound quality of a really full range source. Honestly you could put these in your living room, the sharp pattern control will make them sound even better compared to something with a normal sized horn (or a dome tweeter). Just gain the amp way down to avoid hiss... and make sure you have a big living room.
 

Ben Wheeler

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I dunno, it's like when people ask me if the 18IPAL is good in a particular enclosure: It's the best woofer we can make, so yes? What would be better, less motor or a weaker cone or less suspension travel?

I wanted to build a box that could keep up with the DCX464 and have really nice pattern control to show off the ME464 horn. I was definitely thinking a bit of the outdoor party people who are building a lot of cool looking enclosures, chasing high SPL. It's a bit big for throw and go PA use, and I wouldn't touch flyware with a 10m pole, but it's not heavier than a KF650 (135 lbs) so just big by today's standards. You can tell how nicely it turned out given most of the listening portion of that video is filmed at the edge of the horn pattern! It's slightly arrayable, in that two wide would be ≈150°, and at that point there would probably be enough LF to keep up with the MF/HF. Most people will want a subwoofer anyway just to get that 30Hz, but I think of subwoofers as effects and I prefer the sound quality of a really full range source. Honestly you could put these in your living room, the sharp pattern control will make them sound even better compared to something with a normal sized horn (or a dome tweeter). Just gain the amp way down to avoid hiss... and make sure you have a big living room.

I dunno, it's like when people ask me if the 18IPAL is good in a particular enclosure: It's the best woofer we can make, so yes? What would be better, less motor or a weaker cone or less suspension travel?

I wanted to build a box that could keep up with the DCX464 and have really nice pattern control to show off the ME464 horn. I was definitely thinking a bit of the outdoor party people who are building a lot of cool looking enclosures, chasing high SPL. It's a bit big for throw and go PA use, and I wouldn't touch flyware with a 10m pole, but it's not heavier than a KF650 (135 lbs) so just big by today's standards. You can tell how nicely it turned out given most of the listening portion of that video is filmed at the edge of the horn pattern! It's slightly arrayable, in that two wide would be ≈150°, and at that point there would probably be enough LF to keep up with the MF/HF. Most people will want a subwoofer anyway just to get that 30Hz, but I think of subwoofers as effects and I prefer the sound quality of a really full range source. Honestly you could put these in your living room, the sharp pattern control will make them sound even better compared to something with a normal sized horn (or a dome tweeter). Just gain the amp way down to avoid hiss... and make sure you have a big living room.

I dunno, it's like when people ask me if the 18IPAL is good in a particular enclosure: It's the best woofer we can make, so yes? What would be better, less motor or a weaker cone or less suspension travel?

I wanted to build a box that could keep up with the DCX464 and have really nice pattern control to show off the ME464 horn. I was definitely thinking a bit of the outdoor party people who are building a lot of cool looking enclosures, chasing high SPL. It's a bit big for throw and go PA use, and I wouldn't touch flyware with a 10m pole, but it's not heavier than a KF650 (135 lbs) so just big by today's standards. You can tell how nicely it turned out given most of the listening portion of that video is filmed at the edge of the horn pattern! It's slightly arrayable, in that two wide would be ≈150°, and at that point there would probably be enough LF to keep up with the MF/HF. Most people will want a subwoofer anyway just to get that 30Hz, but I think of subwoofers as effects and I prefer the sound quality of a really full range source. Honestly you could put these in your living room, the sharp pattern control will make them sound even better compared to something with a normal sized horn (or a dome tweeter). Just gain the amp way down to avoid hiss... and make sure you have a big living room.

If I get to build them, they will absolutely be in the living room when not on party duty! A pair of something that can cover any scenario I can sensibly envisage is super interesting.. can't wait for the plans to arrive.

Thanks!
 

Ossian Ott

Freshman
Mar 21, 2015
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Why would this type of cab be preferable to using ground stacked sub/s benefiting from ground coupling run to ~100 Hz, and tops taking over from there? Would you not gain about 6 dB (or 3?) of free bass that way effectively needing half the volume of subs for equal output? Ty for any answer on this!
 

Chris Burns

Freshman
Nov 13, 2016
64
3
8
Connecticut
Going to be designing and building the 464 flanked by 12ndl76s high passed for a mid hi. Direct radiating, possibly toed in a bit side by side sitting under the 464. We shall see how the prototype plays. It will NOT achieve very high output levels unless 4 12s are employed, which is possible. My goal is a lightweight modular trap design that can be easily lifted and ground stacked (or flown).

Stay tuned. This kind of work I don’t do in the summer due to other interests, so I will be picking it back up in the Fall.


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