Looking for comments/opinions from people with experience on mid priced powered line array 10" or smaller, for an install I am quoting. Companion flyable sub would be an added plus.
Powered Line Array for High School gymnasium/auditorium multi purpose room
- Thread starter Chris Greco
- Start date
Re: Powered Line Array for High School gymnasium/auditorium multi purpose room
Chris, it's been a while, hope all is well! Do you have any drawings or dimensions of the space in question? Is there a current system in place that isn't meeting their needs? Do you have a sense of what the space will typically be used (aside from the obvious) for and what type of maximum SPL they need to achieve? Will the system be taken down after events or is it a permanent install? What is driving the need for it to be self powered?
Chris, it's been a while, hope all is well! Do you have any drawings or dimensions of the space in question? Is there a current system in place that isn't meeting their needs? Do you have a sense of what the space will typically be used (aside from the obvious) for and what type of maximum SPL they need to achieve? Will the system be taken down after events or is it a permanent install? What is driving the need for it to be self powered?
Last edited:
Re: Powered Line Array for High School gymnasium/auditorium multi purpose room
G-Note,
48' x 86' x 35' high
Plays, assemblies & all things high school. No Twisted Sister shows. The system design is primarily for reinforcement from the stage and intelligibility. I was also planning on putting in two wall mounted rows of delays because of the reverberant nature of the room. The stated dimensions are the audience area only. Minimal space backstage is the reason for powered scenario. Rig stays up.
Shoot
G-Note,
48' x 86' x 35' high
Plays, assemblies & all things high school. No Twisted Sister shows. The system design is primarily for reinforcement from the stage and intelligibility. I was also planning on putting in two wall mounted rows of delays because of the reverberant nature of the room. The stated dimensions are the audience area only. Minimal space backstage is the reason for powered scenario. Rig stays up.
Shoot
Re: Powered Line Array for High School gymnasium/auditorium multi purpose room
Hi Chris,
The room is really not all that deep, why do you feel that you need a line array? You've got plenty of height and can obtain pretty even coverage from a point source rig at what will likely be a MUCH lower cost without sacrificing quality or output. Most small line array cabs don't have much pattern control in the low mids, whereas some point source boxes (take Danley SH series cabs for instance) have very good pattern control which can be very helpful in acoustically reflective spaces.
When I think of a midpriced line array I'm thinking of something in the 80-100K price range for a rig, and I'm guessing that's probably not what you have in mind. What sort of budget range are you talking about here?
Also, for a fixed install, are you absolutely sure you need self-powered cabs? If an amp module dies in a flown system, that's a whole lot more headache than dealing with an amp rack on the ground. You're probably only talking 4-6U of rack space, not a huge rack, so no big deal unless you are absolutely crazy low on space.
What are the output expectations in terms of an actual SPL number? You say primarily for speech reinforcement etc but IME High Schools often use such systems for dances, talent shows etc etc. Make sure to give them something that can handle those sorts of things thrown at it, because if they are anything like most high schools, it will get pushed hard occasionally.
Hi Chris,
The room is really not all that deep, why do you feel that you need a line array? You've got plenty of height and can obtain pretty even coverage from a point source rig at what will likely be a MUCH lower cost without sacrificing quality or output. Most small line array cabs don't have much pattern control in the low mids, whereas some point source boxes (take Danley SH series cabs for instance) have very good pattern control which can be very helpful in acoustically reflective spaces.
When I think of a midpriced line array I'm thinking of something in the 80-100K price range for a rig, and I'm guessing that's probably not what you have in mind. What sort of budget range are you talking about here?
Also, for a fixed install, are you absolutely sure you need self-powered cabs? If an amp module dies in a flown system, that's a whole lot more headache than dealing with an amp rack on the ground. You're probably only talking 4-6U of rack space, not a huge rack, so no big deal unless you are absolutely crazy low on space.
What are the output expectations in terms of an actual SPL number? You say primarily for speech reinforcement etc but IME High Schools often use such systems for dances, talent shows etc etc. Make sure to give them something that can handle those sorts of things thrown at it, because if they are anything like most high schools, it will get pushed hard occasionally.
Last edited:
Re: Powered Line Array for High School gymnasium/auditorium multi purpose room
Ok this is where it gets funky. They have a 12' deep stage extension that will go in for productions/events that require a deeper stage. So I thought one of my presets would be to kill the lower box of the array to get the pattern off the downstage edge. I could go with multiple point source boxes but if I was dealing with a high q box I would need an minimum of 2 per array and then another two to accommodate the stage thrust issue, or go with front fills but that would be something that would need to be added when the thrust goes away.
Thoughts
Ok this is where it gets funky. They have a 12' deep stage extension that will go in for productions/events that require a deeper stage. So I thought one of my presets would be to kill the lower box of the array to get the pattern off the downstage edge. I could go with multiple point source boxes but if I was dealing with a high q box I would need an minimum of 2 per array and then another two to accommodate the stage thrust issue, or go with front fills but that would be something that would need to be added when the thrust goes away.
Thoughts
Silas Pradetto
Graduate Student
Re: Powered Line Array for High School gymnasium/auditorium multi purpose room
No, sorry, it doesn't work like that. Less boxes = less pattern control (in the low mids) = more LF mud on stage. Sure, you could kill the HF horn and it might help a little in that range.
Why not fly the rig 12' downstage of the installed stage and use flown fills for the first 12', which can be turned off when the extensions are used?
No, sorry, it doesn't work like that. Less boxes = less pattern control (in the low mids) = more LF mud on stage. Sure, you could kill the HF horn and it might help a little in that range.
Why not fly the rig 12' downstage of the installed stage and use flown fills for the first 12', which can be turned off when the extensions are used?
Re: Powered Line Array for High School gymnasium/auditorium multi purpose room
Perhaps ask if they really need full range coverage right to the edge of the room on the stage wall? I did a similar install a few years ago but we deployed the rig such that coverage was targeted at beginning just past the edge of the stage when it was extended. When retracted it was still fine.... people just weren't sitting that close to the stage anyway.
If they do need this extra coverage, a couple small front fills that you can easily switch on/off makes sense.
A couple of high output point source boxes with the desired coverage pattern, a couple subs, and a couple of small fills and you're done.
Perhaps ask if they really need full range coverage right to the edge of the room on the stage wall? I did a similar install a few years ago but we deployed the rig such that coverage was targeted at beginning just past the edge of the stage when it was extended. When retracted it was still fine.... people just weren't sitting that close to the stage anyway.
If they do need this extra coverage, a couple small front fills that you can easily switch on/off makes sense.
A couple of high output point source boxes with the desired coverage pattern, a couple subs, and a couple of small fills and you're done.
Re: Powered Line Array for High School gymnasium/auditorium multi purpose room
Certainly an option, thats Y I'm putting it out there. I'm looking for some constructive feedback.
Certainly an option, thats Y I'm putting it out there. I'm looking for some constructive feedback.
Re: Powered Line Array for High School gymnasium/auditorium multi purpose room
I was thinking thats also a possibility. Maybe a nicely designed distributed rig might be the answer. I have another walk through next week, and will further investigate.
I was thinking thats also a possibility. Maybe a nicely designed distributed rig might be the answer. I have another walk through next week, and will further investigate.
Re: Powered Line Array for High School gymnasium/auditorium multi purpose room
Have you considered the service issue with powered boxes and what it will take to get to them to repair when needed?
Re: Powered Line Array for High School gymnasium/auditorium multi purpose room
Ivan is right again, one of the campus's our church uses meets in a theater and they hired me to do some work on their system, it was powered QSC MD boxes. It was a great sounding box, however due to some lightening they blew the amps in them and it cost almost as much to get in and remove the speakers and re-hang them as it would have to buy a new set of boxes.
Go with a passive box, and then if you need the space, hang the amp rack high enough that little hands can't get to them and there not in anyones way. It will save you a ton of work in the future.
Ivan is right again, one of the campus's our church uses meets in a theater and they hired me to do some work on their system, it was powered QSC MD boxes. It was a great sounding box, however due to some lightening they blew the amps in them and it cost almost as much to get in and remove the speakers and re-hang them as it would have to buy a new set of boxes.
Go with a passive box, and then if you need the space, hang the amp rack high enough that little hands can't get to them and there not in anyones way. It will save you a ton of work in the future.
Re: Powered Line Array for High School gymnasium/auditorium multi purpose room
Currently, line arrays have their place-but in most cases installs is not the place. Once you get past all the marketing hype, and get down to reality in terms of evenness of coverage-sound quality-price-weight-AC current draw and so forth.
But if you "just have to have a banana"-well then go for it-----------
I would argue that in most cases-installs can be handled better with boxes other than line arrays.
Currently, line arrays have their place-but in most cases installs is not the place. Once you get past all the marketing hype, and get down to reality in terms of evenness of coverage-sound quality-price-weight-AC current draw and so forth.
But if you "just have to have a banana"-well then go for it-----------
Re: Powered Line Array for High School gymnasium/auditorium multi purpose room
Now I'm hungry
Now I'm hungry
Re: Powered Line Array for High School gymnasium/auditorium multi purpose room
Do you have sufficient power where you plan to locate the arrays? Will your quote include any electrical relocations or additions required to properly power the arrays?
Have you verified that the existing structure is likely to be able to support an appropriate powered array(s) at the planned locations?
Have you considered the arrays being potential targets for volleyballs, basketballs, etc. and how to protect them?
Are there bleachers on the sides or any balconies or is it always all flat floor when the system would be used?
I can maybe see them for effects speakers for theatrical use but with a 48' wide, 86' long, reverberant room and line arrays, what is the logic behind having side wall mounted speakers?
Are you thinking one center array or left and right arrays?
If this is for plays and assemblies, do they all emanate from the stage? Might you need to support pep rallies, sporting events or other events that aren't focused on stage? Have you considered multiple full range boxes at the ceiling designed to cover different areas of the floor and any bleachers such that you can then have presets that turn on and off or vary the delay for various boxes to accommodate different events or seating arrangements? Maybe add a speaker over the stage for localization when the stage is in use.
Do you have the project or are you competing for this work where the quote cost may be a factor?
Since you are apparently a dealer or Contractor quoting a system, what brands do or can you sell and support?
Do you have sufficient power where you plan to locate the arrays? Will your quote include any electrical relocations or additions required to properly power the arrays?
Have you verified that the existing structure is likely to be able to support an appropriate powered array(s) at the planned locations?
Have you considered the arrays being potential targets for volleyballs, basketballs, etc. and how to protect them?
Are there bleachers on the sides or any balconies or is it always all flat floor when the system would be used?
I can maybe see them for effects speakers for theatrical use but with a 48' wide, 86' long, reverberant room and line arrays, what is the logic behind having side wall mounted speakers?
Are you thinking one center array or left and right arrays?
If this is for plays and assemblies, do they all emanate from the stage? Might you need to support pep rallies, sporting events or other events that aren't focused on stage? Have you considered multiple full range boxes at the ceiling designed to cover different areas of the floor and any bleachers such that you can then have presets that turn on and off or vary the delay for various boxes to accommodate different events or seating arrangements? Maybe add a speaker over the stage for localization when the stage is in use.
Do you have the project or are you competing for this work where the quote cost may be a factor?
Re: Powered Line Array for High School gymnasium/auditorium multi purpose room
Currently quoting, dont have the Job yet
Re: Powered Line Array for High School gymnasium/auditorium multi purpose room
Chris, I haven't talked with the school representatives or been in the space so you probably have insights that I do not, but I offer the comments below based on my understanding of what you have presented.
Chris, I haven't talked with the school representatives or been in the space so you probably have insights that I do not, but I offer the comments below based on my understanding of what you have presented.
Unfortunately, I've had multiple bad experiences resulting from 'two stepping' products and based on those experiences, in making any decision on which products to propose you may want to consider things like whether the product warranties can be transferred or 'passed through' to your Client (if you are not an authorized Dealer then some manufacturers may consider you the Original Purchaser, which is a potential problem for your Client if the warranty is non-transferable), if the manufacturers will provide you direct support (I've had manufacturers limit the support offered to parties other than authorized Dealers), if you need to allow additional time for warranty repairs/replacements due to having to go through the Dealer and so on.
But is that work part of your quote with the E.C. as a subcontractor to you or are you leaving it up to the Owner to handle on their own (and if so, are you planning to define the scope of work required as part of your quote package so they can get it priced)? Have you determined what electrical service is existing and if it may place limitations on what is possible without requiring major changes? If the audio system you are proposing may require thousands or tens of thousands of dollars in associated electrical work then not only may the Owner may want to know that, but you may want to consider it in what you propose.
I understand you may not have exact weights or locations of the arrays but are you comfortable that flying powered arrays is a practical option? It seems to be worth doing some preliminary verification of the viability of flying arrays in general and identifying any limits that might be placed on that approach before proceeding with that concept.
What about speaker grilles being dented in by basketballs and volleyballs? Or if the array is cable or chain supported the potential the dynamic loads that balls hitting an array and possibly even causing it to move might impose?
Is the concept of line arrays with delay fills the result of some preliminary modeling or other coverage prediction or is it more the result of a LAR (Looks About Right) approach? I understand the concept of maximizing the direct-to-reverberant energy ratio in order to improve intelligibility, however perhaps I'm misunderstanding what you propose as with the room dimensions you noted I don't understand using line arrays if they are apparently only going to cover a limited portion of the floor with the delay fills covering the remainder.
Having two arrays is going to double the cost and likely lower the intelligibility for mono sources like speech. Have you considered whether the horizontal pattern of the arrays may be a concern in terms of the resulting energy directed at the side walls or stage? And how does having left and right arrays up front integrate with the side wall delay speakers? Might it actually be less expensive and offer a better result to have one center array along with left and right projectors and screens?
Are you the only company from whom they are soliciting a bid or are they getting multiple, competitive bids? If cost is a factor then I have to believe there are probably less expensive options for what they are trying to achieve than two line arrays plus delay fills.
Re: Powered Line Array for High School gymnasium/auditorium multi purpose room
Brad is simply putting a realistic thought process into what is involved.
There is A LOT more than just simply hanging some speakers.
It is the TOTAL COSTS that the customer is interested in-and the end result-that should be based on predictions-not wild guesses and "hopes"
Brad is simply putting a realistic thought process into what is involved.
There is A LOT more than just simply hanging some speakers.
It is the TOTAL COSTS that the customer is interested in-and the end result-that should be based on predictions-not wild guesses and "hopes"
Re: Powered Line Array for High School gymnasium/auditorium multi purpose room
Alright, this is a gym-torium kind of thing, right? As someone who still works in these occasionally, I'm sick and tired of poor system design when it comes to these rooms, whether it's lighting, staging, sound, whatever - and it can usually be solved with these few things:
1- FOR THE LOVE OF GOD RING OUT THE SYSTEM AND TUNE IT WITH A PROCESSOR. Not that you weren't going to, but seriously - it better be done or the room is going to sound more like shit than it already does.
2- Fly high and fly passive. Use trap boxes with pattern control prioritized over sound quality and level... not that you should sacrifice if you don't have to, but sometimes budget rules. Avoid arrays if you can. In this situation, I would really, really suggest Danley SH boxes. Plus, you can leave all the amp weight in a rack in a utility room along with the processor and leave it locked away from mischief, like me. :twisted: They are also going to be there a long time, and school schedules are not conducive to maintenance at any time other than the summer.
3- Mono is your friend, but make sure that you have a good way to go from stereo to mono built in. Most music from the kids will be mixed in stereo for headphones, so this can be tricky. Good DI solves this, however.
4- Your everyday input sources are going to be pretty trashy sounding. Whether it be low bitrate mp3s or the coach yelling into a cupped micrphone, planning for this can change what you do with your system.
5- Point the coverage at the floor and not at the walls. Once you're filled with people during prom, there is plenty of extra absorption.
6- You do not. DO. NOT. Need subs. Medium sized cinderblock boxes do not seem to behave well down low...
In your particular case, I would fly LR and C, and have the C be for speaking and vocal repoduction, and LR only there for multimedia and or music/etc. Fly it at around 28 feet-32 feet and ~4 in front of the proscenium. Down angled coverage, set to drop off at -6db 12 feet from the front of the stage. Put L/R at the edges of the proscenium, do not angle them in the horizontal plane at all, and possibly fly them a bit lower. Maybe SH50s or SH60s, personally but that's just a rough estimate.
Of course, this isn't what you should be worrying about. You've got to remember who is operating it and what they are using it for. It's going to take a lot of abuse and it needs to be essentially the kindergarten version of live sound until someone who knows what they are doing is supposed to be mixing a production, concert, or whatever. Do them a favor- give that mixer a hook up 20 feet from one side of the back wall, and see if they will put something up to prevent back wall reflections, like padding or something along those lines.
Naturally, though, I'm not there, I don't know. But this seems like a relatively standard install to me that you are on your way to over complicating.
Alright, this is a gym-torium kind of thing, right? As someone who still works in these occasionally, I'm sick and tired of poor system design when it comes to these rooms, whether it's lighting, staging, sound, whatever - and it can usually be solved with these few things:
1- FOR THE LOVE OF GOD RING OUT THE SYSTEM AND TUNE IT WITH A PROCESSOR. Not that you weren't going to, but seriously - it better be done or the room is going to sound more like shit than it already does.
2- Fly high and fly passive. Use trap boxes with pattern control prioritized over sound quality and level... not that you should sacrifice if you don't have to, but sometimes budget rules. Avoid arrays if you can. In this situation, I would really, really suggest Danley SH boxes. Plus, you can leave all the amp weight in a rack in a utility room along with the processor and leave it locked away from mischief, like me. :twisted: They are also going to be there a long time, and school schedules are not conducive to maintenance at any time other than the summer.
3- Mono is your friend, but make sure that you have a good way to go from stereo to mono built in. Most music from the kids will be mixed in stereo for headphones, so this can be tricky. Good DI solves this, however.
4- Your everyday input sources are going to be pretty trashy sounding. Whether it be low bitrate mp3s or the coach yelling into a cupped micrphone, planning for this can change what you do with your system.
5- Point the coverage at the floor and not at the walls. Once you're filled with people during prom, there is plenty of extra absorption.
6- You do not. DO. NOT. Need subs. Medium sized cinderblock boxes do not seem to behave well down low...
In your particular case, I would fly LR and C, and have the C be for speaking and vocal repoduction, and LR only there for multimedia and or music/etc. Fly it at around 28 feet-32 feet and ~4 in front of the proscenium. Down angled coverage, set to drop off at -6db 12 feet from the front of the stage. Put L/R at the edges of the proscenium, do not angle them in the horizontal plane at all, and possibly fly them a bit lower. Maybe SH50s or SH60s, personally but that's just a rough estimate.
Of course, this isn't what you should be worrying about. You've got to remember who is operating it and what they are using it for. It's going to take a lot of abuse and it needs to be essentially the kindergarten version of live sound until someone who knows what they are doing is supposed to be mixing a production, concert, or whatever. Do them a favor- give that mixer a hook up 20 feet from one side of the back wall, and see if they will put something up to prevent back wall reflections, like padding or something along those lines.
Naturally, though, I'm not there, I don't know. But this seems like a relatively standard install to me that you are on your way to over complicating.
Re: Powered Line Array for High School gymnasium/auditorium multi purpose room
Max has a lot of great points, I only disagree with #6. If in the position of designing the system, some basic acoustic treatment and bass trapping can be done very well without huge cost.
Typed on a virtual keyboard.
Max has a lot of great points, I only disagree with #6. If in the position of designing the system, some basic acoustic treatment and bass trapping can be done very well without huge cost.
Typed on a virtual keyboard.
Re: Powered Line Array for High School gymnasium/auditorium multi purpose room
REAL pattern control down to a low freq-without using electrical interference to provide the pattern is BY FAR the best way to go.
That means LARGE HORNS-there is no other way around it.
People like to "ignore" all the suprious lobes that come from interference type loudspeaker (line array-line source-electronically steerable etc), yet they ARE there and they DO present problems. It is NOT the nice "half a can" type projection they would like you to believe.
SIMPLE TO OPERATE is KEY to these types of installs. Yes you may have a knowledgeable operator at the time of the install-but will they be there for ALL events?
How long will they be with the facility? Who will operate it when they get a new job or retire?
Flexibility is NOT a good thing in most cases and MONO RULES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Most people have no idea why they want stereo-except they think is "better". Just ask them why they want stereo to see if they have a real answer.
Agreed (with a possible exception to #6)
REAL pattern control down to a low freq-without using electrical interference to provide the pattern is BY FAR the best way to go.
That means LARGE HORNS-there is no other way around it.
People like to "ignore" all the suprious lobes that come from interference type loudspeaker (line array-line source-electronically steerable etc), yet they ARE there and they DO present problems. It is NOT the nice "half a can" type projection they would like you to believe.
SIMPLE TO OPERATE is KEY to these types of installs. Yes you may have a knowledgeable operator at the time of the install-but will they be there for ALL events?
How long will they be with the facility? Who will operate it when they get a new job or retire?
Flexibility is NOT a good thing in most cases and MONO RULES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Most people have no idea why they want stereo-except they think is "better". Just ask them why they want stereo to see if they have a real answer.