StudioLive 16:4:2 troubles

Brian jojade

Senior
Jan 15, 2011
718
9
0
Wausau, WI
www.happymacshop.com
Last night, I was mixing a show on a Studio Live 16:4:2. This was a one off show with a bunch of random musicians that I had a whole 2 days notice on. Needless to say, the night was a bit of chaos to start with. This is the first event I've used this board in this type of environment. I've had the board for about 6 months now.



I had set the board so that I was using subgroups for vocals, keyboards, drums, etc. The subs patched into the mains, and I used the mono output connector, as I typically would.



During the first set, about a half a dozen times, the entire output of the board cut out for about 10 seconds at a time.



What appeared to happen is that if ANY of the subgroups went into clipping, it would take out the whole board. Not just the mains, but the auxes as well were cutting out. The meters on the board didn't show anything wrong, but no output.



I realized that I hadn't engaged the limit button for the inputs or the subgroups. After I did that, things got better. Why those aren't engaged by default, I don't understand. Why would you ever want them off if all it does is cut out the board when you do hit limit??



Anyway, after I engaged the limiters, it seemed as though that the problem was solved. however, it did cut out a couple more times later in the evening. One time the cut out was right as I got a text message on my phone, which was right by the console. Not sure if that is related at all or not. When it happened that time, I wasn't running anything that hot, so it shouldn't have been a clipping situation.



As far as power goes, I thought that might have been a problem, as the venue wasn't sure which outlets were on which circuits. With the bass hits, I did see the light on the board dim slightly, but looking at the voltage meter, the voltage swing was only about 2 volts, never dipping below 120. Not the harshest electrical environment I've been in, by far.



I'm really disappointed in how this board behaved. Yeah, it was nice to have the features of a digital board at my fingertips, but I've NEVER had one of my analog boards do anything like this. Has anyone else had these sorts of problems? I'm really concerned about using this board in the future if this is the kind of problems to expect to happen.
 
Re: StudioLive 16:4:2 troubles

Brian-



I have no experience with this mixer, but I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around the concept of the desk not passing audio if it's clipped. Perhaps it's possible to drive this thing til it runs out of ones.



That said, why did you find it necessary to drive the desk this hard to begin with? Do your amps or other system drive require 8v or more to hit FTB or do you simply have Not Enough Rig for the Gig®? At those levels I don't expect your amps or powered speakers to be very happy at all.



Anything else you can think of that might be relevant?



Tim ''inquiring mind'' Mc

 
Re: StudioLive 16:4:2 troubles

Tim...



The only time I've experienced anything remotely similar, it has been a power issue. I run my digital gear on a UPS. No problems.



DR
 
Re: StudioLive 16:4:2 troubles

This was a fairly chaotic gig. There were about 2 dozen musicians popping in and out between songs, switching instruments, mics, etc. It was a challenge to know what was going on.



I was running the board a little hotter than normal because I didn't realize that the gain control on the mono output wasn't at full, but the main outputs isn't where the clipping was happening. I never saw the mains go more than 1 yellow light, and that was only a couple times. There was plenty rig for the gig, and the amps never approached clipping. That's usually not the issue with the systems I set up. :)However, this was sort of a rushed setup, so I didn't get a chance to completely dial everything in like I normally do, which is why the slight trim on the output got by me. I had increased the gain on the DriveRack a couple DB to compensate, so effective gain structure was fine except for that link. Normally, I run out of the left/right outputs into the driverack, but for this show, I decided to just take the mono output because of a shortage of lines back to the amp rack.



Where the clipping was happening was in the subgroups. It happened when a different player would come in and crank the volume on a keyboard or suddenly all 3 keyboards kicked in and got loud, or whatever.



Yeah, it shouldn't happen, and under normal circumstances, it wouldn't.



As far as power issues are concerned, the specs on the mixer are having an operating voltage of 100-240 volts. I can pretty much guarantee I never got anywhere near 100 volts, so that should be a non issue. It seems silly that one would NEED a UPS on your mixer. The idea of having a digital console is so that you don't need outboard gear!
 
Re: StudioLive 16:4:2 troubles

In 15+ years of using a ProMix01 I've run on circuits that saw the screen on the board pulsing with every kick drum kick, or fade to a barely legible gray from low voltage, but never had one cut out. Just sayin'...

?;o)

Al
 
Re: StudioLive 16:4:2 troubles

Hi Brian-



Full tilt boogie is +24dBu. You'd have had the output down by -15 dB if you were routinely running out of ones in the 'groups'.



I think Dick is on to something, though. Your power metering may only show a 2 volt dip, but the work light is telling you something else. From your description of the evening, sudden high levels were frequent and matched the console issue. That would be when the backline was drawing the most, your PA and monitors, too.



Finally, if you find yourself running groups that hot, or input trims hotter than usual, you need to figure out why this JDLR. It's telling you there is a big knob or switch that isn't set right. Listen to the Force, young Jedi.



Have fun, good luck.



Tim Mc
 
Re: StudioLive 16:4:2 troubles

Tim...



Indeed. The problem looks to me to be the OP's assigning blame to one area without real proof and sticking to that snap diagnosis.



This type of thinking (or the lack thereof) is the greatest impediment to good problem solving.



#1. Assume nothing.

#2. See #1.



DR
 
Re: StudioLive 16:4:2 troubles

I ran a test on the board in the shop. One input driven to the tilt, and the board worked just fine. I then decided to feed signal to ALL channels and run everything up near clip. The board cut out when I did that. Mind you, the red OL lights didn't come on, just the top level yellow, and poof, no sound for 10 seconds.



Now, in my test, I was driving it MUCH harder than I was at the show and it took about 10 minutes before sound cut out, but it did cut out. Same symptoms. Displays all looked just fine on the board, but nothing coming out. Of course, live music would have been more dynamic, so there might have been stronger peaks diving further into clip. The fact that I could drive one channel into oblivion with no problems, but driving all channels hot - but not clipping on the meter - is really a concern.



The problem could have been made worse at the live show if the voltage sagged a bit, but this still is concerning that something as simple as a gain pot set wrong somewhere will mute the ENTIRE board. Mains, auxes, everything muted.



Yes, this is a lesson learned in 'don't do that' but should it really be? It is as though the system doesn't have enough power to drive all the pre-amps or something. Kind of reminds me of a certain other brand of board that doesn't have a strong enough power supply to drive all channels to full at once. But at least on those crappy boards, all it does is distort more when you get there.



Like I said earlier, for the other jobs that I have done, this board has performed fairly well for me. It's in these 'oh shit' scenarios where it decided to let me down.



FYI, I also was running 6 phantom powered mics at the show. There were a couple instances where 2 of the mics stopped working. The first time, I disconnected and reconnected the mic. Problem solved. The 2nd time, I swapped out the mic and the problem went away. The 3rd time, I swapped out the mic and plugged into a different patch with a different mic cable. Not sure if it was the mic, or the cable, or what. I'm guessing this too could have been a power issue, if for some reason phantom power wasn't being supplied. Since it was mid-show, I didn't get to measure the phantom voltage to see if it was there or not. It was only 2 mics that gave me those troubles. Testing the mics today and they are just fine. So, either I have 4 bad mics and 2 bad channels on the snake or the mixer was the source of the trouble. Since the snake and the cables and the mics test out fine, again, the problem leads to the mixer.



I pride myself in having gear that works. It was a test of my ability to handle stress with these meltdowns during a show. The party was for Grammy nominee Peter Phippen. He's an amazing flute player. That part of the show (the important part) went off without a hitch. The rest of the musicians were all pretty low key, and they took it in stride, and even complimented me for dealing with the problem without freaking out. I have worked with all of the musicians in the past, and they realized that this was totally not normal for the service I provide. Still, not something I want to happen EVER at a show.
 
Re: StudioLive 16:4:2 troubles

I ran a test on the board in the shop. One input driven to the tilt, and the board worked just fine. I then decided to feed signal to ALL channels and run everything up near clip. The board cut out when I did that. Mind you, the red OL lights didn't come on, just the top level yellow, and poof, no sound for 10 seconds.



Now, in my test, I was driving it MUCH harder than I was at the show and it took about 10 minutes before sound cut out, but it did cut out. Same symptoms. Displays all looked just fine on the board, but nothing coming out. Of course, live music would have been more dynamic, so there might have been stronger peaks diving further into clip. The fact that I could drive one channel into oblivion with no problems, but driving all channels hot - but not clipping on the meter - is really a concern.



The problem could have been made worse at the live show if the voltage sagged a bit, but this still is concerning that something as simple as a gain pot set wrong somewhere will mute the ENTIRE board. Mains, auxes, everything muted.



Yes, this is a lesson learned in 'don't do that' but should it really be? It is as though the system doesn't have enough power to drive all the pre-amps or something. Kind of reminds me of a certain other brand of board that doesn't have a strong enough power supply to drive all channels to full at once. But at least on those crappy boards, all it does is distort more when you get there.



Like I said earlier, for the other jobs that I have done, this board has performed fairly well for me. It's in these 'oh shit' scenarios where it decided to let me down.



FYI, I also was running 6 phantom powered mics at the show. There were a couple instances where 2 of the mics stopped working. The first time, I disconnected and reconnected the mic. Problem solved. The 2nd time, I swapped out the mic and the problem went away. The 3rd time, I swapped out the mic and plugged into a different patch with a different mic cable. Not sure if it was the mic, or the cable, or what. I'm guessing this too could have been a power issue, if for some reason phantom power wasn't being supplied. Since it was mid-show, I didn't get to measure the phantom voltage to see if it was there or not. It was only 2 mics that gave me those troubles. Testing the mics today and they are just fine. So, either I have 4 bad mics and 2 bad channels on the snake or the mixer was the source of the trouble. Since the snake and the cables and the mics test out fine, again, the problem leads to the mixer.



I pride myself in having gear that works. It was a test of my ability to handle stress with these meltdowns during a show. The party was for Grammy nominee Peter Phippen. He's an amazing flute player. That part of the show (the important part) went off without a hitch. The rest of the musicians were all pretty low key, and they took it in stride, and even complimented me for dealing with the problem without freaking out. I have worked with all of the musicians in the past, and they realized that this was totally not normal for the service I provide. Still, not something I want to happen EVER at a show.



Sounds to me like the power supply inside is just weak. The only thing that should matter though for rail voltage is how much output (aux and mains) and how much phantom you are using. These should be the only variable loads for the board. Slight power fluctuations could worsen the effect.



The number of channels/groups should not matter if the board is truly digital (as long as you are not driving any channel inserts or group outs as well, I don't know if the StudioLive has these or not).



IMO, this is completely unacceptable for a mixer targeted for live sound production.



Edit: one thing to note, the load on the outputs should not be that high. You are probably driving something with an input impedance near or greater than 10 kOhms. Even at +20dBu you are looking at 7.75V and about 6 mW.
 
Re: StudioLive 16:4:2 troubles

Just a random thought, could this be a heat issue? It almost sounds like some sort of thermal protection, but not shutting down the whole board, just muting things until they cool off?



Other than that, I think it's a faulty power supply.
 
Re: StudioLive 16:4:2 troubles

Call Presonous, see what they have to say. Maybe it's a firmware issue. When is the last time the board was updated?



Greg