System expansion quandry

Hey Folks,

With larger and more varied shows in the future I've started looking at expanding my PA system. Currently I have 4 JBL srx718s with 2 JBL srx722 tops along with 8 EV Qrx112s for monitors and utility work. For smaller shows I use a Qrx over a single sub. The standard amp rack is a Crest Pro9200 for the subs, Pro8200 for the tops, DSP and a patch panel all in a 6 space rack - compact, light and portable. This system works well for the shows I do and looks professional.

In order to be as flexible as possible and keep the gear working, I want to build two identical systems, each having 4 subs, 2 tops and the standard amp rack. A single system for the smaller shows, a system per side for the larger stuff. To this end, I'm looking to get another 4 srx718 subs and build another identical amp rack. This gear is all available used, so shouldn't be a problem to put together. The real quandry is the tops. My srx722s, although I like their performance and sound, don't array well and would need to be replaced. Trouble is, after spending weeks looking through every manufacturer's product line and a bunch of posts here and on ProSoundWeb I can't find anything beyond Community's SLS960 that fits the need and budget. Danley SH60s would be perfect, but are beyond my range. Same for the Fulcrum, D&B, RCF, Turbosound, Yorkville and EAW stuff.

Are there any trap cabs out there that are compact, arrayable, go down to ~150hz, ~60x60 pattern and available for ~$1k used? Pole mountable would be a big plus, but that means the weight has to stay under 60lbs, hardly attainable with horn loaded cabs. Dispersion of 60x60 or so is preferred as I seldom need to go wider than 120 degrees. I absolutely do not want a compact Line array as they don't give me the flexibility I need.

Evan Kirkendall went through the same debate a while ago and ended up with the SL960s over his single 18 subs, which tells me I'll probably do something very similar. Evan may be young, but he seems to have his head on straight.

Thanks in advance for any ideas.

Ciao
Simon
 
Re: System expansion quandry

The 960's are probably the best power/output/arrayability option that exists. You can run an outdoor show's worth of 960's on a 20 amp circuit...easily.
 
Re: System expansion quandry

Hey John,

I kept coming to the same conclusion, which is surprising considering how long the Community SLS boxes have been around. Now if they would develop a neo version of the 960 and shave 20-30lbs, that would be unbeatable.

Looking at the specs, they want to see about 1000w into 8ohm, the Crest Pro8200 can do that comfortably. I'm wonder about putting two of them on one channel which gives them each 725watts and leaves me an amp channel open for a near-fill box. Slightly underpowered, but the near fill should give me better coverage up front.

The DSP settings seem pretty straightforward. Is their controller doing anything beyond some EQ?

Ciao
Simon
 
Re: System expansion quandry

Simon,
As you know, I went through the same debate. It's a tough, but good spot to be in. Fast forward from that thread, and I've stuck to my plan. The biggest part of my plan is consistency and scalability. I sold off all the mismatching gear I had and bought a shit load of the same stuff. You're already on the same path. I can send out 3+ rigs at a time, or scale it all up into a nice sized festival PA. The SLS960 is a money making box- but they're HARD to find used. If you can get them, they absolutely kick ass. And the best part is- you don't need huge amp racks to power them. I've got PL6.0's powering them(2 cabs per channel) and I hardly ever see past -20 on the amps. I have 8 SLS960's, and 4 SLS920's now. The plan for the spring is to fly 4 per side with the 920's as front fills. Should cover a few thousand outdoors easily.

But like I said, they're hard to find used! There are other options out there- the KF650e comes to mind. But, I wanted an efficient PA, so that's why I ended up where I am.


Good luck- you'll come up with 30 options before you actually make a decision. :)



Evan
 
Re: System expansion quandry

Another vote for the EAW KF-650e. They are difficult for one person to hoist on top of a sub but it can be done. They are out there for low dollars too. I have eight of them and scale up and down as necessary.
 
Re: System expansion quandry

Simon,
As you know, I went through the same debate. It's a tough, but good spot to be in. Fast forward from that thread, and I've stuck to my plan. The biggest part of my plan is consistency and scalability. I sold off all the mismatching gear I had and bought a shit load of the same stuff.

Hey Evan,

You and I are both moving in the same direction. I also had an oddball mess of equipment that I sold off several years ago and concentrated on a standard setup. While reconfiguring the equipment, I put patch panels in the front of my amp racks, replaced all of the NL2 or 1/4" speaker cables with NL4 and changed everything to xlr so setup was consistent. The standard amp rack can also be used with every speaker setup I have by selecting the appropriate dsp settings. These changes made a huge difference.

I really want to continue this same idea as I grow by selecting equipment that works well singularly or in multiples and keeping the inventory reduced and working. To me, that is the big lesson of this business. Stuff in the warehouse just costs money.

Referring to the other responses, I looked at the KF-650, but found it physically too large and not particularity efficient. I also wanted something that I could run passive and handle by myself. They sound good and can get loud, but didn't quite fit the specs I needed. Their smaller brothers, the KF-364 are very close, but not as efficient. Same for the EV xi-series boxes. One had all the right numbers, but was biamp/triamp only. Close but not quite. Its amazing that the 20 year old SLS boxes still keep bubbling to the top of the pile. Makes me wonder how many Community has sold.

Anyone got a few 960s sitting around doing nothing?

Ciao
Simon
 
Re: System expansion quandry

Simon -
The Turbosound TA-500 Aspect Wide would be an excellent choice in my opinion. We have used them for years for small / mid sized shows and as side fills. They sound very good, get reasonably loud and array beautifully. This has historically been a pretty high end box with a MAP @ $4500. The new Turbosound (Music Group) price list just came out. The TA-500 has been given the new designation TAS-153. (Pretty sure that the change is to the name only, they renamed the entire product line and announced 140 NEW products...but that's a different story.) The MAP price has dropped to @ $1250. IMHO, that is an insane price for that box.
 
Re: System expansion quandry

Pretty sure that the change is to the name only, they renamed the entire product line and announced 140 NEW products...but that's a different story.

Steve,

Not trying to derail Simon's thread, but from an outsider's view it looks like with the exception of a couple of the lines, the new model numbers follow the sequence of:

(Product Family)-("Anchor" driver size)(# of drivers) for main/mid high units, and
(Product Family)-(# of drivers)(driver size) for subs

With any suffixes after that to designate special versions/options/etc. Is that about correct?
 
Re: System expansion quandry

Hi Brian,
Someone from Music Group posted to another thread here, and that was basically what he said. As such, the new model numbers make more sense. Prices across the board reflected a 30/50% reduction. The Aspect Wide was a notable exception in the HUGE (400%?) price reduction. In my view, now an incredible value.
 
Re: System expansion quandry

OK Art, what have you got?!

We currently have Danley SM80's operating in this size range but I have the feeling that I'm going to want more output (we were running SH46's--loads of headroom there)!
Jeff,

Jeffrey,

What I got is the "one man solution" to the problems of the conflict between size, weight, output and scalability, that is being able to add more cabinets without interference problems.
Although the DSL SM80 may be ideal for smaller shows, and is light (50 pounds), the pattern limits it to only 2 a side, and rolling off below 200 Hz, it does not have enough low mid guts for larger shows, and with an 80 degree conical pattern needs to be up really high to not burn ears up close.
The SH 46 go plenty low for use with most any subs, and array better, but still are limited to 2-3 boxes a side without pattern interference, and at 115 pounds are not a one man lift unless using crank-up towers or chain motors.

Other boxes like the CLS SLS 960 and the various Turbosound cabinets (which may have some good price points now) still have scalability problems, and are too heavy for pole mounting, unless using crank lifts.

My solution uses 50 pound top cabinets with a 90 x10 degree pattern using 3" diaphragm high frequency drivers on a Paraline with two 8" drivers sharing the same horn, their output within 1/4 wavelength of the HF output, so like the DSL Synergy or Genesis horns,
the output is a virtual point source, except deployed in a modular column.

The column starts on a 2" plinth, a 45" x 45" base which ratchet straps to the cabinets to make it high wind and crowd resistant.
The LF cabinets are 45" high(same tech specs as a DSL TH18, but taller) then a spacer cord case brings the height to 58.25".
A 4x8" cabinet adds another 22.5" to the column, then between 80.75" (well above head height) to 137" (11.3 feet, 3.5 meters) 1-5 top cabinets complete it, depending on the vertical pattern and output needed.

Amazingly efficient, have generally not needed to use a power distribution (also available) as the system runs fine on two (solid) 20 amp circuits (as long as you are not running EDM). The optional waveguides increase low frequency sensitivity by 3 dB, and extend the 90 degree horizontal pattern control down to about 225 Hz.
The system is remarkably compact for it's output and capability, 8 monitors and drum sub, Midas Venice 32, racks, mic and stands kit, waveguides and FOH riser all fit in a 5x8 "V" front trailer towed behind an Astro van, also available for sale (and delivery of the system). The tops can outrun the subs, but I stopped expanding past the size limits of the trailer ;^) .

I can almost guarantee that the price of the total system would be far less than the cost of anything remotely approaching the output and coverage potential.
I am not looking for much more than Bennett's "quick and dirty bar rig", yet this system is capable of covering over 5000 people outdoors- and can be set up by one person.

But there is only one system like it presently available.

Art
 

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Re: System expansion quandry

Simon -
The Turbosound TA-500 Aspect Wide would be an excellent choice in my opinion. We have used them for years for small / mid sized shows and as side fills. They sound very good, get reasonably loud and array beautifully. This has historically been a pretty high end box with a MAP @ $4500. The new Turbosound (Music Group) price list just came out. The TA-500 has been given the new designation TAS-153. (Pretty sure that the change is to the name only, they renamed the entire product line and announced 140 NEW products...but that's a different story.) The MAP price has dropped to @ $1250. IMHO, that is an insane price for that box.

Hey Steve,

Thanks for a great tip. The TAS-153 does look like a good option and at that price could be a real steal. It's a bit bigger than I wanted, but weight is not bad, angles are a bit tighter but still workable, and the efficiency is good. Looking through the now somewhat bewildering lineup, most of the Turbosound boxes seem to come in a portable and install version, and also in a passive/biamp or even active version, but I couldn't find a portable version of the TAS-153. Do you know if there is a portable and passive version? There are a few portable double 15"s that also have the -153 name, but nothing I could find that shares the same driver set.

Ciao
Simon
 
Re: System expansion quandry

Simon -
Well, bad news. While the new price sheet I just got definitely lists TA-153 (aka TA-500) at $1250. MAP, I have just been informed that price is a typo. Correct price is $3450 MAP. This makes much more sense and is in line with all of the other price cuts. I am really sorry to mislead you. I was passing along what I thought was accurate info that came straight from the horse's mouth. Good luck in your search.
 
Re: System expansion quandry

Simon -
Well, bad news. While the new price sheet I just got definitely lists TA-153 (aka TA-500) at $1250. MAP, I have just been informed that price is a typo. Correct price is $3450 MAP. This makes much more sense and is in line with all of the other price cuts. I am really sorry to mislead you. I was passing along what I thought was accurate info that came straight from the horse's mouth. Good luck in your search.

Man this sucks; I had thought I was about to find something that I could actually suggest for our installs again. Oh well.
 
Re: System expansion quandry

Well, bad news. While the new price sheet I just got definitely lists TA-153 (aka TA-500) at $1250. MAP, I have just been informed that price is a typo. Correct price is $3450 MAP.
Steve,

I had wondered about that price (made buying used gear look unattractive), the Starin list price is even higher than what your revised MAP is.
With so many new products and model designation changes, wonder how many other typos will show up.

Art
 

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Re: System expansion quandry

The actual price is still not a bad price for a horn loaded, tri-ampable box, with great pattern control.

I know that- our bean counters don't...

Quick swerve into story mode: I interned at my uncle's architecture firm a while back. One of the projects I worked on was a design pitch for an accounting firm - specifically their lobby. One of the coolest things to see was what the other companies put forth. There were many interesting designs, some with little lofts and others with a full second level around the central atrium. My personal favorite was a large, open lobby with a gigantic, 40 foot by 24 foot wall of beans behind the front desk.
 
Re: System expansion quandry

Steve,

I had wondered about that price (made buying used gear look unattractive), the Starin list price is even higher than what your revised MAP is.
With so many new products and model designation changes, wonder how many other typos will show up.

Art

Yep. Of course, you posted list and I posted MAP. Plus, depending on who you know and how much you are going to buy, an end buyer can always do better than MAP. So it is a whole lot of box for the money.
 
Re: System expansion quandry

I know that- our bean counters don't...

Quick swerve into story mode: I interned at my uncle's architecture firm a while back. One of the projects I worked on was a design pitch for an accounting firm - specifically their lobby. One of the coolest things to see was what the other companies put forth. There were many interesting designs, some with little lofts and others with a full second level around the central atrium. My personal favorite was a large, open lobby with a gigantic, 40 foot by 24 foot wall of beans behind the front desk.

How many beans can you get on a 40 x 24 wall?