The Facebook guy
- Thread starter Ben Lawrence
- Start date
Re: The Facebook guy
Simple self interest. it is estimated this one person will save $68M by changing his tax home. Tax rates in singapore are both lower, and not promising to get even more confiscatory toward people like him in the near future.
How many jobs have these facebook guys created? How much wealth are they creating, here in the US? Do we really want to chase these people away?
In a classic example of current political thinking, Sen Schumer (NY) has proposed a special 30% tax on such vaguely defined tax escapees.
Saverin was born in Brazil and has lived in Singapore since 2009. Who here wouldn't make a similar decision given the same circumstances? We just don't have his billions and personal circumstances. If anything he might have done this more quietly and not coincident with the big stock market IPO.
Last year over 1,700** people renounced their citizenship compared to 200 in 2008. This story shouldn't be about those people leaving, but more what has changed about our country to make leaving such an attractive option. A similar trend has been going on for years with the tax exodus of citizens from states like California, to lower tax states nearby, likewise for NY state citizens. maybe those states need to consider Shumer laws too.. (not). Most states that pass special millionaire's taxes are disappointed when they later try to collect the loot and find the millionaires missing.
Of course opinions vary, and it is a popular theme to attack wealthy as cash cows that need to be milked. I see the wealthy as the spark plugs for our economic engine that we need more of not less. Shummer's legislation is typical political arm waving and more class warfare. They need to spend a fraction of that effort on tax reform to close unproductive tax breaks. The government could raise the same amount of tax revenue with a lower nominal rate, helping the other 99% of business that haven't secured individual sweetheart tax deals.
For todays irony, speaking of sweetheart tax deals, Warren Buffet, the poster boy for charging the wealthy higher tax rates, recently negotiated a special tax break for his fractional aircraft rental business...(quid pro quo? I don't know but he's no fool). Warren also donated much of his personal wealth to Bill Gates Charity. If he honestly believed the government was a good warden of our personal wealth he would just give his to them. Again he's no fool.
Argue among yourselves... its definitely the season for that.
JR
** I don't know for a fact that all 1,700 left for tax reasons, but it is a notable increase from 2008.
Simple self interest. it is estimated this one person will save $68M by changing his tax home. Tax rates in singapore are both lower, and not promising to get even more confiscatory toward people like him in the near future.
How many jobs have these facebook guys created? How much wealth are they creating, here in the US? Do we really want to chase these people away?
In a classic example of current political thinking, Sen Schumer (NY) has proposed a special 30% tax on such vaguely defined tax escapees.
Saverin was born in Brazil and has lived in Singapore since 2009. Who here wouldn't make a similar decision given the same circumstances? We just don't have his billions and personal circumstances. If anything he might have done this more quietly and not coincident with the big stock market IPO.
Last year over 1,700** people renounced their citizenship compared to 200 in 2008. This story shouldn't be about those people leaving, but more what has changed about our country to make leaving such an attractive option. A similar trend has been going on for years with the tax exodus of citizens from states like California, to lower tax states nearby, likewise for NY state citizens. maybe those states need to consider Shumer laws too.. (not). Most states that pass special millionaire's taxes are disappointed when they later try to collect the loot and find the millionaires missing.
Of course opinions vary, and it is a popular theme to attack wealthy as cash cows that need to be milked. I see the wealthy as the spark plugs for our economic engine that we need more of not less. Shummer's legislation is typical political arm waving and more class warfare. They need to spend a fraction of that effort on tax reform to close unproductive tax breaks. The government could raise the same amount of tax revenue with a lower nominal rate, helping the other 99% of business that haven't secured individual sweetheart tax deals.
For todays irony, speaking of sweetheart tax deals, Warren Buffet, the poster boy for charging the wealthy higher tax rates, recently negotiated a special tax break for his fractional aircraft rental business...(quid pro quo? I don't know but he's no fool). Warren also donated much of his personal wealth to Bill Gates Charity. If he honestly believed the government was a good warden of our personal wealth he would just give his to them. Again he's no fool.
Argue among yourselves... its definitely the season for that.
JR
** I don't know for a fact that all 1,700 left for tax reasons, but it is a notable increase from 2008.
Last edited:
Re: The Facebook guy
This is an easy one.
I know for you, everything seems to boil down to money, taxes, ROI.
But for others there is quality of life.
During the Clinton years, he opened the borders. To the wealthy, and those looking for education.
This all ended with the Patriot Act.
Excluding those over 40, we don't even rank in the top 25 worldwide in higher education anymore.
Some people were willing to wait it out for a while. But now its obvious that just because we have a great president, doesn't mean that everything that went wrong in the last administration will be righted.
It sometimes takes a lot longer to undo than to do.
And with this congress and its relentless WOW (War on Women), and the general attitude of suspicion and outright hatred for "anyone who doesn't look like me", its not hard to see why some people who have the money can easily move on.
I know of people from Iran who have previously been contributing members of our society, and are now just uncomfortable. Why put up with the same crap here that they (women) faced in Iran. And why put energy and money into a community who suddenly decides it hates you? There are other places in the world where they are welcomed, and it is our loss.
Same with Mexicans. I know some who have renounced their hard fought citizenship to go back to their original communities to put their energy and money to work where it is more appreciated.
Argue among yourselves? That sure sounds smug to me. Like you have decreed, and will watch from above while we scrap it out in the muck.
Fuck that, I'm going to disagree with you.
This is an easy one.
I know for you, everything seems to boil down to money, taxes, ROI.
But for others there is quality of life.
During the Clinton years, he opened the borders. To the wealthy, and those looking for education.
This all ended with the Patriot Act.
Excluding those over 40, we don't even rank in the top 25 worldwide in higher education anymore.
Some people were willing to wait it out for a while. But now its obvious that just because we have a great president, doesn't mean that everything that went wrong in the last administration will be righted.
It sometimes takes a lot longer to undo than to do.
And with this congress and its relentless WOW (War on Women), and the general attitude of suspicion and outright hatred for "anyone who doesn't look like me", its not hard to see why some people who have the money can easily move on.
I know of people from Iran who have previously been contributing members of our society, and are now just uncomfortable. Why put up with the same crap here that they (women) faced in Iran. And why put energy and money into a community who suddenly decides it hates you? There are other places in the world where they are welcomed, and it is our loss.
Same with Mexicans. I know some who have renounced their hard fought citizenship to go back to their original communities to put their energy and money to work where it is more appreciated.
Argue among yourselves? That sure sounds smug to me. Like you have decreed, and will watch from above while we scrap it out in the muck.
Fuck that, I'm going to disagree with you.
Re: The Facebook guy
For the record I said in a footnote that I did not know why the 1700 people left, while the increase in number of people leaving seems like a hard fact.
Mr. Savern say's it isn't about the Benjamin's, and he is doing social media research in Singapore, but the timing of the renouncement seems like good tax planning to be kind. Another speculation is that he doesn't want to be constantly compared and in live in the shadow of Zukenberg , like Paul Allen who is constantly compared to Bill Gates, not other less successful peers. Living in Singapore may offer some relief from that.
Another economic trend that has reduced our brain power magnet, where we used to get the world's brightest minds here to attend university, then the cream of that crop would settle here for the business opportunity, is that the massive economic growth in countries like China and India has made it possible for these best and brightest minds, to find gainful employment in bangalore or quangdong.
Our immigration situation is a train wreck and it has been since the last time congress "fixed" it. In classic fashion, they wrote their laws, but then didn't follow up with the funding to prosecute those laws, so we ended up with with the massive illegal immigration who respond to what our government does, not what it says. About the only thing that has stemmed the tide of illegal immigration is the weak economy, and I doubt the administration wants to take credit for that.
Neither party has been willing to openly discuss and deal with the current immigration situation as they both position themselves for political benefit WRT the hispanic voting block, expected to get larger with the next amnesty. Typical spineless politics as usual.
Higher education is being affected by another trend. The political class tries to manipulate the world around them by managing superficial appearances that correlate with some desired result, not the underlying reality that resists easy manipulation. Just like politicians thought they were helping poor people by putting them in homes they couldn't afford, they expect college graduates make more money, so they took over the college loan business and make it way too easy to get college loans. As simple economics would predict, if there is more money chasing the same commodity, the price of that commodity will go up. A secondary effect, is that entrance requirements and difficulty of curriculum have dropped to match this new expanded crop of students.
So not only is this college loan program another pile of debt we taxpayers will probably end up swallowing (OK if it actually did some good), but we haven't really helped these new college graduates. One telling anecdote was from a young college graduate protesting at one of the Occupy camps because he couldn't find a decent job. When asked what his degree was in, he replied "comparative religion". Hard to imagine that specialty is not a ticket to fat paychecks. :-( (again congress playing checkers in a world that is playing chess).
I don't doubt that the politicians are trying to help, but they don't realize that they have a reverse midas touch, where everything they touch turns to lead (while i was thinking of something more scatalogical). They could do more good by not helping so much. Priming the pump doesn't change the amount of water in the well, only short term function of the pump... (This relationship is lost on the advocates of more stimulus. We need to look at the well not the pump).
This coming election will be a report card for the last 4 years. "Bush ate my homework" will not play this time around. It didn't work in 2010, no matter how much they promote that theme. Middle America may not be too smart for that argument, they just aren't that patient (IMO).
As I have already said elsewhere, both parties are full of sh__ when they claim they have some plan that can create jobs. All government can do is bleed the economy like a leech. We don't need more leechs, we need to leave the patient alone so "we" can recover our depleted health from all the bleeding.
I find this divide to conquer political campaign pretty transparent; "men against women", "straights against gay", "rich against poor", don't forget "white against black", or this new category "hispanic-white against black (?)". This is not only transparent but seems a little desperate, and this is the great unifier, who was going to practice a new kind of politics and bring us all together?
The Latest round of economic sanctions seems to have brought Iran to the table, but they are playing us, just like North Korea did. The most painful part is that the sanctions mostly hurt the Iranian people who are not our enemies, it's the regime that is out of world favor. Iran has a well educated population that deserve better, while so do the Syrians and others in the region.
I doubt you are trying to make my point about the economy, so what exactly are you saying WRT nationalized mexicans? They are under appreciated? I appreciate them because they have higher birth/replacement rates than our aging population. We need the population growth for healthy economic growth. They are also not allergic to work, a problem too many US citizens suffer from. (I apologize for any stereo-types i am throwing around, they seem to fit.)
My comment was meant to convey that I did not wish to enter into the dueling partisan talking points, we see on cable TV and these days even posing as news. I am always open for a thoughtful discussion of fact and honest analysis of history. I have been paying close attention to world events for a long time, so I am capable of forming my own opinions. For the record I didn't start this thread, while I am not shy about saying what I think.
I do not expect people to passively take my word for anything, but please do not allow yourself to be manipulated by the political machines from both sides that will be flinging several billion dollars worth of mud at us, trying to identify the one personal peeve to make each voter, vote against one or the other candidate. Please take one giant step backwards and look at the game they are playing to manipulate you to win your vote. Don't vote against either candidate based on one narrow, and probably unimportant, characteristic. Do try to look at the real track record of both (not the latest story fabricated by their detractors). Both now have an actual track record that can be reviewed. Don't let other people think for you. You are adults and capable of critical thought. Invest at least as much effort as you do researching mics or speakers, then vote....
[/rant]
Jack: I don't think you mean to insult me, but you comments are not very flattering, nor do I think they are justified, while you are free to your opinions, and I am a big boy...
How about those Thunder... ? Can they get past San Antonio? I had a bad feeling about this season with the compressed games schedule, while injuries are always a factor in sports.
JR
One reason political discussion get out of hand is because people are so quick to get personal and speculate about what other people think. This is extremely difficult to know even when people tell you.
For the record I said in a footnote that I did not know why the 1700 people left, while the increase in number of people leaving seems like a hard fact.
Mr. Savern say's it isn't about the Benjamin's, and he is doing social media research in Singapore, but the timing of the renouncement seems like good tax planning to be kind. Another speculation is that he doesn't want to be constantly compared and in live in the shadow of Zukenberg , like Paul Allen who is constantly compared to Bill Gates, not other less successful peers. Living in Singapore may offer some relief from that.
Indeed, the clamp down in security since 9/11 has disproportionately slowed "good" immigration, while having little impact on illegal immigration thanks to our porous borders.
Another economic trend that has reduced our brain power magnet, where we used to get the world's brightest minds here to attend university, then the cream of that crop would settle here for the business opportunity, is that the massive economic growth in countries like China and India has made it possible for these best and brightest minds, to find gainful employment in bangalore or quangdong.
Our immigration situation is a train wreck and it has been since the last time congress "fixed" it. In classic fashion, they wrote their laws, but then didn't follow up with the funding to prosecute those laws, so we ended up with with the massive illegal immigration who respond to what our government does, not what it says. About the only thing that has stemmed the tide of illegal immigration is the weak economy, and I doubt the administration wants to take credit for that.
Neither party has been willing to openly discuss and deal with the current immigration situation as they both position themselves for political benefit WRT the hispanic voting block, expected to get larger with the next amnesty. Typical spineless politics as usual.
First things first, we don't rank well in lower education. You can't excel in higher education when you don't educate the kids with the basics. Now there is new push back against standardized testing. Arguing that the testing is somehow making it more difficult to teach, or creating children programmed to pass tests, Huh? life is a test... and if we don't prepare children with a sound education they will fail the larger test. Teachers need to get their performance measured, just like any other human endeavor, how can you know if you are making progress if you don't measure the result?
Higher education is being affected by another trend. The political class tries to manipulate the world around them by managing superficial appearances that correlate with some desired result, not the underlying reality that resists easy manipulation. Just like politicians thought they were helping poor people by putting them in homes they couldn't afford, they expect college graduates make more money, so they took over the college loan business and make it way too easy to get college loans. As simple economics would predict, if there is more money chasing the same commodity, the price of that commodity will go up. A secondary effect, is that entrance requirements and difficulty of curriculum have dropped to match this new expanded crop of students.
So not only is this college loan program another pile of debt we taxpayers will probably end up swallowing (OK if it actually did some good), but we haven't really helped these new college graduates. One telling anecdote was from a young college graduate protesting at one of the Occupy camps because he couldn't find a decent job. When asked what his degree was in, he replied "comparative religion". Hard to imagine that specialty is not a ticket to fat paychecks. :-( (again congress playing checkers in a world that is playing chess).
I don't doubt that the politicians are trying to help, but they don't realize that they have a reverse midas touch, where everything they touch turns to lead (while i was thinking of something more scatalogical). They could do more good by not helping so much. Priming the pump doesn't change the amount of water in the well, only short term function of the pump... (This relationship is lost on the advocates of more stimulus. We need to look at the well not the pump).
What is obvious to one political persuasion, is not so obvious to the other. Lets just say opinions vary
This coming election will be a report card for the last 4 years. "Bush ate my homework" will not play this time around. It didn't work in 2010, no matter how much they promote that theme. Middle America may not be too smart for that argument, they just aren't that patient (IMO).
As I have already said elsewhere, both parties are full of sh__ when they claim they have some plan that can create jobs. All government can do is bleed the economy like a leech. We don't need more leechs, we need to leave the patient alone so "we" can recover our depleted health from all the bleeding.
This sounds more like a partisan talking point than credible analysis. If you really feel for women's rights we shouldn't be negotiating for coexistence with the Taliban in Afghanistan. Just this week there are new reports of closing schools in Afghanistan due to bomb threats from the taliban, who are not fans of secular education or women's rights.
I find this divide to conquer political campaign pretty transparent; "men against women", "straights against gay", "rich against poor", don't forget "white against black", or this new category "hispanic-white against black (?)". This is not only transparent but seems a little desperate, and this is the great unifier, who was going to practice a new kind of politics and bring us all together?
Now that is a bit of a stretch, but since you bring up Iran, they are once again playing us for fools by dangling the possibility of nuclear site inspections, while we seem unusually soft against the brutal Assad regime in Syria who is killing political protesters. Is there some secret quid pro quo where we don't want to irritate Iran over their surrogate in Syria?
The Latest round of economic sanctions seems to have brought Iran to the table, but they are playing us, just like North Korea did. The most painful part is that the sanctions mostly hurt the Iranian people who are not our enemies, it's the regime that is out of world favor. Iran has a well educated population that deserve better, while so do the Syrians and others in the region.
?? I worry about Mexico. I recall traveling down there on business some 10-15 years ago, a beautiful country and great people. Their economy is probably doing better than ours right now, even with the open drug gang warfare and lawlessness. Many mexicans who moved here did it for the economic opportunity. if that opportunity is no longer attractive it seems logical to move back home.
I doubt you are trying to make my point about the economy, so what exactly are you saying WRT nationalized mexicans? They are under appreciated? I appreciate them because they have higher birth/replacement rates than our aging population. We need the population growth for healthy economic growth. They are also not allergic to work, a problem too many US citizens suffer from. (I apologize for any stereo-types i am throwing around, they seem to fit.)
My comment was meant to convey that I did not wish to enter into the dueling partisan talking points, we see on cable TV and these days even posing as news. I am always open for a thoughtful discussion of fact and honest analysis of history. I have been paying close attention to world events for a long time, so I am capable of forming my own opinions. For the record I didn't start this thread, while I am not shy about saying what I think.
I do not expect people to passively take my word for anything, but please do not allow yourself to be manipulated by the political machines from both sides that will be flinging several billion dollars worth of mud at us, trying to identify the one personal peeve to make each voter, vote against one or the other candidate. Please take one giant step backwards and look at the game they are playing to manipulate you to win your vote. Don't vote against either candidate based on one narrow, and probably unimportant, characteristic. Do try to look at the real track record of both (not the latest story fabricated by their detractors). Both now have an actual track record that can be reviewed. Don't let other people think for you. You are adults and capable of critical thought. Invest at least as much effort as you do researching mics or speakers, then vote....
[/rant]
Jack: I don't think you mean to insult me, but you comments are not very flattering, nor do I think they are justified, while you are free to your opinions, and I am a big boy...
How about those Thunder... ? Can they get past San Antonio? I had a bad feeling about this season with the compressed games schedule, while injuries are always a factor in sports.
JR
Re: The Facebook guy
Now that's funny. How do you measure greatness? Let's look at what's happened under this great president since he took office.Gas price has doubled. Median household income down by $4300.Longest streak of 8+ % unemployment since the great depression. 70% increase in food stamp recipients. Increased federal debt by more than $5 trillion. Has taken more campaign money from Wall St than any other president in history.His latest budget was defeated 414 to 0 in the house and 99 to 0 in the senate.Housing ownership at a decade low.50% of college graduates either unemployed or underemployed.
Now that's funny. How do you measure greatness? Let's look at what's happened under this great president since he took office.Gas price has doubled. Median household income down by $4300.Longest streak of 8+ % unemployment since the great depression. 70% increase in food stamp recipients. Increased federal debt by more than $5 trillion. Has taken more campaign money from Wall St than any other president in history.His latest budget was defeated 414 to 0 in the house and 99 to 0 in the senate.Housing ownership at a decade low.50% of college graduates either unemployed or underemployed.
Re: The Facebook guy
generally speaking, it takes years of living in a foreign country before one is elligible to become naturalized and therefore have the chance to renounce US citizenship.
generally speaking, it takes years of living in a foreign country before one is elligible to become naturalized and therefore have the chance to renounce US citizenship.
Re: The Facebook guy
I'm no political expert, but you can't rag on someone for spending money and then use the fact that everyone voted AGAINST his preferred financial plan to back up your gripe..
Jason
I'm no political expert, but you can't rag on someone for spending money and then use the fact that everyone voted AGAINST his preferred financial plan to back up your gripe..
Jason
Re: The Facebook guy
Eduardo Saverin facebook co-founder's family was wealthy and they moved to the US when he was a child (from Brazill) because they were afraid of kidnapping, a popular cash business in some poor regions.
JR
Eduardo Saverin facebook co-founder's family was wealthy and they moved to the US when he was a child (from Brazill) because they were afraid of kidnapping, a popular cash business in some poor regions.
JR
Re: The Facebook guy
It is the job of a leader to lead, and when you don't control both houses of the legislature like he did in 2008, you compromise, like Pres. Clinton did with generally good results after he lost both houses. You don't turn "every" single issue into a public referendum to earn political points for the next election. Our government is set up so the lower house (house of representatives) is the more responsive to public opinion, and the senate and executive branch are supposed to rigorously investigate issues and negotiate "informed" solutions between the three of them. Giving public opinion too much weight becomes a glorified lynch mob, which is perfectly democratic, and dangerous.
IMO, he squandered his two years of unfettered control forcing unpopular (perhaps unconstitutional) legislation on the public. Even back then with no one in the legislature to stop him, he didn't bother to negotiate and pass a budget (his actual responsibility). Of course since then his budgets keep getting kicked down the road, and have not been resolved since he has held office.
FWIW the recent 99-0 senate vote was in response to a republican budget resolution that was "based" on Obama's budget, but the vote result is still notable. This kind of vote from even the democratically controlled senate, makes it difficult to believe the Obama budget ever was a credible attempt. It looks to me like he is just playing politics with our nation's business, but draw your own conclusions. We would like to think that the reports of abusive spending by the GSA is just an isolated agency problem and not a system wide failure to practice budget discipline by the executive branch.
We will hear several more months of both sides trying to spin the evidence to make their side look good (actually more to make the other side look bad because voters often vote against candidates for single reasons). Try not to read too much into any one item, but look at the whole picture, and decide for yourself who is best equipped to lead us for the next 4 years.
JR
PS: I heard a funny (to me) joke about this next election, but I won't post it here since I understand how such political humor is subjective and not only not funny but irritating to those with a different political persuasion (so PM me if you want to laugh or be irritated). We can't engage in thoughtful exchanges when angry at each other so lets try to stick to facts and things.
It is the job of a leader to lead, and when you don't control both houses of the legislature like he did in 2008, you compromise, like Pres. Clinton did with generally good results after he lost both houses. You don't turn "every" single issue into a public referendum to earn political points for the next election. Our government is set up so the lower house (house of representatives) is the more responsive to public opinion, and the senate and executive branch are supposed to rigorously investigate issues and negotiate "informed" solutions between the three of them. Giving public opinion too much weight becomes a glorified lynch mob, which is perfectly democratic, and dangerous.
IMO, he squandered his two years of unfettered control forcing unpopular (perhaps unconstitutional) legislation on the public. Even back then with no one in the legislature to stop him, he didn't bother to negotiate and pass a budget (his actual responsibility). Of course since then his budgets keep getting kicked down the road, and have not been resolved since he has held office.
FWIW the recent 99-0 senate vote was in response to a republican budget resolution that was "based" on Obama's budget, but the vote result is still notable. This kind of vote from even the democratically controlled senate, makes it difficult to believe the Obama budget ever was a credible attempt. It looks to me like he is just playing politics with our nation's business, but draw your own conclusions. We would like to think that the reports of abusive spending by the GSA is just an isolated agency problem and not a system wide failure to practice budget discipline by the executive branch.
We will hear several more months of both sides trying to spin the evidence to make their side look good (actually more to make the other side look bad because voters often vote against candidates for single reasons). Try not to read too much into any one item, but look at the whole picture, and decide for yourself who is best equipped to lead us for the next 4 years.
JR
PS: I heard a funny (to me) joke about this next election, but I won't post it here since I understand how such political humor is subjective and not only not funny but irritating to those with a different political persuasion (so PM me if you want to laugh or be irritated). We can't engage in thoughtful exchanges when angry at each other so lets try to stick to facts and things.
Re: The Facebook guy
That was the basis of the post I deleted. Mr. Saverin's family took refuge here, then availed themselves of the educational, financial and social opportunities presented by the USA. Now that Mr. Saverin can afford private security details the likes of which heads of state use, he has no further need of his US citizenship.
While expecting gratitude from almost anyone for anything is probably a wasted effort, this leaves a bad taste and elevates Mr. Saverin to "asshat."
That was the basis of the post I deleted. Mr. Saverin's family took refuge here, then availed themselves of the educational, financial and social opportunities presented by the USA. Now that Mr. Saverin can afford private security details the likes of which heads of state use, he has no further need of his US citizenship.
While expecting gratitude from almost anyone for anything is probably a wasted effort, this leaves a bad taste and elevates Mr. Saverin to "asshat."
Re: The Facebook guy
I try not to invest too much effort into how to capture and spend OPM. Capital in free markets is very portable and routinely moves to wherever it gets treated the best and earns the best return (Singapore?).
We can try to force capital to stay here (Sen Schummer proposal) so the government can use it for their agenda, or make it naturally attractive for it to come here (and stay here) so it can be put to work, which will support "our" nation's economic growth.
We will have more success raising tax revenue while helping the economy by closing tax loopholes so we can lower the average rate, while still raising significant revenue for the government's business. The large corporations already enjoy the inherent advantage of size, they don't need additional tax benefits on top of that. Lets give small business a level playing field to compete. Economic studies have shown that independent of nominal rates, taxes can only extract a finite percent of GDP before growth stalls or reverses (I forget the exact number but in the 20s of percent).
IMO class warfare along with the shopping list of us-vs-them screed being promoted, (men-women, gay-straight, white-black, etc) is a distraction to divide us and take our eyes off real substantive issues. I am less concerned about one Saverin as the thousands following him out the door. This is indeed a symptom and a trend, but not of bad behavior by unpatriotic wealthy people, again just simple self interest of the smarted people in the room. We can effect a win-win by aligning their self interest with the nations (growing the "private" economy).
While I expect opinions vary.
JR
I try not to invest too much effort into how to capture and spend OPM. Capital in free markets is very portable and routinely moves to wherever it gets treated the best and earns the best return (Singapore?).
We can try to force capital to stay here (Sen Schummer proposal) so the government can use it for their agenda, or make it naturally attractive for it to come here (and stay here) so it can be put to work, which will support "our" nation's economic growth.
We will have more success raising tax revenue while helping the economy by closing tax loopholes so we can lower the average rate, while still raising significant revenue for the government's business. The large corporations already enjoy the inherent advantage of size, they don't need additional tax benefits on top of that. Lets give small business a level playing field to compete. Economic studies have shown that independent of nominal rates, taxes can only extract a finite percent of GDP before growth stalls or reverses (I forget the exact number but in the 20s of percent).
IMO class warfare along with the shopping list of us-vs-them screed being promoted, (men-women, gay-straight, white-black, etc) is a distraction to divide us and take our eyes off real substantive issues. I am less concerned about one Saverin as the thousands following him out the door. This is indeed a symptom and a trend, but not of bad behavior by unpatriotic wealthy people, again just simple self interest of the smarted people in the room. We can effect a win-win by aligning their self interest with the nations (growing the "private" economy).
While I expect opinions vary.
JR
Re: The Facebook guy
I haven't read this whole thread properly, but i know lots of Dual Canadian-American citizens feel forced to renounce their US citizenship because the IRS is after them. Relief to the draconian penalties was granted, but many are still uneasy. One example:
Now, a small but growing band of Americans in Canada is doing it in reverse – gathering en masse to begin the process of becoming un-American.
I haven't read this whole thread properly, but i know lots of Dual Canadian-American citizens feel forced to renounce their US citizenship because the IRS is after them. Relief to the draconian penalties was granted, but many are still uneasy. One example:
Failure to file so-called Foreign Bank Account Reports can result in penalties of $10,000 (U.S.) a year for every account – fines that can quickly reach hundreds of thousands of dollars. In some extreme cases, the IRS can seize up to half the contents of accounts. Neglecting to file certain tax schedules also triggers fines.
Mike Vance, a 26-year-old doctor from Nanaimo, B.C., who moved to Canada as a child, said the partial amnesty is good news. But he said he no longer trusts that the United States won’t come after his assets in the future as the country struggles to deal with its massive debt.
“I’m using this as a warning sign,” explained Mr. Vance, who recently began the complex process of renouncing his U.S. citizenship. “I’m just starting out as a young doctor and going to have a fair bit of money invested in Canada.”
From U.S. taxman to go easy on American residents in Canada - The Globe and Mail
This was the earlier story:
The U.S. citizenship ceremony is an iconic rite of passage for immigrants. Would-be Americans gather to pledge allegiance to the Stars and Stripes. There are cheers and often tears, patriotic speeches, sometimes music, and plenty of flag waving.
Mike Vance, a 26-year-old doctor from Nanaimo, B.C., who moved to Canada as a child, said the partial amnesty is good news. But he said he no longer trusts that the United States won’t come after his assets in the future as the country struggles to deal with its massive debt.
“I’m using this as a warning sign,” explained Mr. Vance, who recently began the complex process of renouncing his U.S. citizenship. “I’m just starting out as a young doctor and going to have a fair bit of money invested in Canada.”
From U.S. taxman to go easy on American residents in Canada - The Globe and Mail
This was the earlier story:
The U.S. citizenship ceremony is an iconic rite of passage for immigrants. Would-be Americans gather to pledge allegiance to the Stars and Stripes. There are cheers and often tears, patriotic speeches, sometimes music, and plenty of flag waving.
Now, a small but growing band of Americans in Canada is doing it in reverse – gathering en masse to begin the process of becoming un-American.
It was a sombre affaire at the U.S. consulate in Toronto last month as 22 Americans waited in the rain before being ushered in to what is believed to be the first citizenship renunciation meeting ever held in Canada.
Unlike most countries, the United States requires its citizens to file annual tax returns with its Internal Revenue Service regardless of where they live and work. Many of the roughly one million Canadian-American citizens long ago stopped filing, assuming they owed no tax. Many are worried now they’ll be hit with punishing penalties as a result of recent U.S. efforts to prevent its citizens from hiding assets in offshore tax havens.
New rules require all Americans to report their foreign bank and brokerage accounts every year. And by 2014, Canadian financial institutions will have to identify accounts held by U.S. citizens to the IRS. The crackdown has provoked outrage among Canadian-American citizens in Canada.
Americans in Canada driven to divorce from their country - The Globe and Mail
One way of looking at this is to say that some of those 'leaving' may have left long ago. Canada is certainly no tax-haven either!
New rules require all Americans to report their foreign bank and brokerage accounts every year. And by 2014, Canadian financial institutions will have to identify accounts held by U.S. citizens to the IRS. The crackdown has provoked outrage among Canadian-American citizens in Canada.
Americans in Canada driven to divorce from their country - The Globe and Mail
One way of looking at this is to say that some of those 'leaving' may have left long ago. Canada is certainly no tax-haven either!
Re: The Facebook guy
Yup, and the IRS has been expanded recently in anticipation of becoming the enforcement arm for revenue raising to fund the "health care legislation".
The most egregious abuse of that foreign bank accts law that I've heard about recently was some man who was an American citizen only because his mother came here for medical attention while she was giving birth, so he was automatically made an US citizen. Years later as an adult the IRS went after him for not registering his offshore accts, despite the fact that he has been living in his other country since his birth, not in the US.
No doubt responsible for part of the 1,700 heading for the exits. We need to pay taxes for funds the government needs to operate and perform needed duties, but these days it seems unsatisfied and hungry for more. In the earlier years the government could completely fund it's normal business from fees associated with issuing government permits, import duties, and the like. Government borrowing was typically limited to funding wars. Times have changed to put it lightly.
America, pay it or leave it... :-( I still love it, but there are visible flaws.
JR
Yup, and the IRS has been expanded recently in anticipation of becoming the enforcement arm for revenue raising to fund the "health care legislation".
The most egregious abuse of that foreign bank accts law that I've heard about recently was some man who was an American citizen only because his mother came here for medical attention while she was giving birth, so he was automatically made an US citizen. Years later as an adult the IRS went after him for not registering his offshore accts, despite the fact that he has been living in his other country since his birth, not in the US.
No doubt responsible for part of the 1,700 heading for the exits. We need to pay taxes for funds the government needs to operate and perform needed duties, but these days it seems unsatisfied and hungry for more. In the earlier years the government could completely fund it's normal business from fees associated with issuing government permits, import duties, and the like. Government borrowing was typically limited to funding wars. Times have changed to put it lightly.
America, pay it or leave it... :-( I still love it, but there are visible flaws.
JR
Re: The Facebook guy
I wonder how much he paid in taxes while here and why that isn't enough to "save" him from the hatred that some have because he left for greener pasture. Why can we not show gratitude to him for paying all those exorbitant taxes all those years. This country is way too steeped in class warfare. The poor hate the rich because they are rich and the rich despise the poor because they see everyone as having their hands out and the politicians bait us with this all the time while we bite the hook like good little fish.
I wonder how much he paid in taxes while here and why that isn't enough to "save" him from the hatred that some have because he left for greener pasture. Why can we not show gratitude to him for paying all those exorbitant taxes all those years. This country is way too steeped in class warfare. The poor hate the rich because they are rich and the rich despise the poor because they see everyone as having their hands out and the politicians bait us with this all the time while we bite the hook like good little fish.
Re: The Facebook guy
i left in 2003 for what i hoped was a better quality of life, increased employment opportunities, artistic passion, and that i never really felt comfortable in american society. my first years were of a starving artist experience, and there have been many professional ups and downs, but Ive never second guessed my decision. That i feel so comfortable here, see a potential for so much more growth, have a german daughter, etc, I will seek naturalization when eligible. If that means denouncing my US citizenship, so be it.
My experience does not work for everyone, and I've had friends move back after many years here, but I have to imagine that there are a myriad range of motivations beyond financial for many of those that left.
i left in 2003 for what i hoped was a better quality of life, increased employment opportunities, artistic passion, and that i never really felt comfortable in american society. my first years were of a starving artist experience, and there have been many professional ups and downs, but Ive never second guessed my decision. That i feel so comfortable here, see a potential for so much more growth, have a german daughter, etc, I will seek naturalization when eligible. If that means denouncing my US citizenship, so be it.
My experience does not work for everyone, and I've had friends move back after many years here, but I have to imagine that there are a myriad range of motivations beyond financial for many of those that left.