TVI Audio C210ii Line Array

[Brandon Blakeney]

Did our first show over the weekend with 12 boxes of TVI C210ii. We have the powered version with the new ICE amplifiers which run cool with no fan and have a built in DSP which can be edited via USB. You only need an amplifier in every other box as the amps are 3 channel so when you couple another box it just drops your impedance to 4 ohms per channel. The amps are quite efficient and only pull about 12 amps peak per 3 amplifiers.

I was quite impressed with the punch and clarity of the boxes, they throw much harder than the ribbon drivers that we previously used. My local competitor who has a Nexo rig came by to check out our stage and asked, "What brand is that? They sound good!"

The construction of the boxes is excellent with a nice "duratex" finish and heavy foam-backed grill, I would definitely recommend these to anyone who needs a system of this size but cannot justify the cost of one of the more well known brands.

 

[Spenser Hamilton]

Re: TVI Audio C210ii Line Array

We had a 8/per side hang of the C208 Powered LA come through our theater last December, the rigging was fairly easy to use from what I remember - the SE and myself had both arrays in the air in short order.

The interesting thing is we had a 4886 rig in a few weeks earlier, and I wasn't impressed with the audio quality (I think there was some goofs made in the processing), the TVI rig was processed externally (Meyer processors I believe) and sounded quite good. Further proof that deployment and processing can make a big difference.

 

[Shane Presley]

Re: TVI Audio C210ii Line Array

Brandon, is it me, or is the roof crooked ? I hope more people showed up to justify the pa your brought out. I know there are some ground stack "haters" around here, but it looks like you could have used a couple pieces of scaff to get the pa to the same height... a little less effort / lugging eventers...

 

[Brandon Blakeney]

Re: TVI Audio C210ii Line Array

Brandon, is it me, or is the roof crooked ? I hope more people showed up to justify the pa your brought out. I know there are some ground stack "haters" around here, but it looks like you could have used a couple pieces of scaff to get the pa to the same height... a little less effort / lugging eventers...

The roof may have been slightly crooked, I didn't notice. The stage and roof were provided by another company. As far as justifying the PA, yes there were many more people behind my vantage point. We were providing for a national country artist that had expectations of a flown PA. Also you know that I couldn't stand not deploy all of my brand new rig

 

[Brandon Blakeney]

Re: TVI Audio C210ii Line Array

We did our 2nd gig Saturday with the TVI C210ii Line array. It was our local "Day in the Park" featuring all local entertainment. Although the crowd can be scarce at any one time right around the stage, I did need to be able to throw 200+ feet up a hill. You may notice that all the boxes are at 0 degrees, I wasn't sure what was the best approach in this situation but "J-ing" them towards the ground doesn't make sense. In the past I have used 4 QW4's for this event, but have since sold them.

We got setup early enough that I had time to ring the TVI's out with my phonic rta and they sounded fantastic all day long! Got several compliments from sound and recording studio guys from my area that were in attendance.

 

[Eric Cagle]

Re: TVI Audio C210ii Line Array

That is a nice looking little rig Brandon. Does it get alot louder than the versarray?

 

[Tim McCulloch]

Re: TVI Audio C210ii Line Array

You may notice that all the boxes are at 0 degrees, I wasn't sure what was the best approach in this situation but "J-ing" them towards the ground doesn't make sense.

This is one of the things I categorize as "misdeployment". That you didn't use the prediction software to determine coverage and sound field SPL sums it all up. You might as well have kept your old Q Wave rig and saved the money.

 

[Brandon Blakeney]

Re: TVI Audio C210ii Line Array

This is one of the things I categorize as "misdeployment". That you didn't use the prediction software to determine coverage and sound field SPL sums it all up. You might as well have kept your old Q Wave rig and saved the money.

Every single audience member was at least 10 feet above the level of the stage....how would you have done it? I don't think they have a prediction software. Peavey has a prediction software for the Versarray's but I rarely used it because it was a lot of trouble to reangle them for each show because many of the boxes had bolts rather than pins....I bought all of it used.

Any who, this system blows away 4 QW4's and is much louder than the Versarrays.

 

[Bennett Prescott]

Re: TVI Audio C210ii Line Array

Brandon,

I have never met a line array that had the same pattern at HF as at LF and I expect I never will. That means that hanging at 0 degrees is the worst possible decision, you have a laser beam at HF and an omni source at LF. Additionally you will create the most possible inter-source interaction, which results in ugly beaming. If you're going to use all the same angle it behooves you to determine what angle is required to get the most consistent pattern across the widest bandwidth.

For example, here is a similarly sized line array at 0 degree splay, at 200, 800, and 3200 Hz:


And here is the same line array at 2 degree splay at the same frequency intervals:


That is a pretty marked increase in consistency with basically no increase in effort. I'm not saying 2° is the number to use, it's just the number I picked for this simulation.

 

[Brandon Blakeney]

Re: TVI Audio C210ii Line Array

Brandon,

I have never met a line array that had the same pattern at HF as at LF and I hope I expect I never will. That means that hanging at 0 degrees is the worst possible decision, you have a laser beam at HF and an omni source at LF. Additionally you will create the most possible inter-source interaction, which results in ugly beaming. If you're going to use all the same angle it behooves you to determine what angle is required to get the most consistent pattern across the widest bandwidth.

For example, here is a similarly sized line array at 0 degree splay, at 200, 800, and 3200 Hz:
View attachment 6838View attachment 6839View attachment 6840

And here is the same line array at 2 degree splay at the same frequency intervals:
View attachment 6841View attachment 6842View attachment 6843

That is a pretty marked increase in consistency with basically no increase in effort.

Valid points Bennett, I guess I was thinking more about the Versarrays which they recommended that you leave at 0 degrees and just pull them back to the lift. If anyone can help me find the software for the TVI's I would be appreciative....I can't seem to find it on their website. Thanks

 

[Tim McCulloch]

Re: TVI Audio C210ii Line Array

You're right, they don't have prediction software. They don't have data for EASE Focus, either. This is why you either need to be a line array measurement guru, or it's all just a crap shoot.

If your park gig sounded "better" this year it's because the QW didn't have the laser-beam penetration that Bennett mentions. How many folks were consistently seated *on axis* with the PA?

Don't take it personally, this is a clear opportunity to demonstrate why a straight line isn't usually a good way to deploy a vertical array any more than a constant curvature is.

Go here - VERTEC Tech lib and read the AES papers by Mark Ureda, Mark Englebretson and David Scheirman.

 

[Brandon Blakeney]

Re: TVI Audio C210ii Line Array

You're right, they don't have prediction software. They don't have data for EASE Focus, either. This is why you either need to be a line array measurement guru, or it's all just a crap shoot.

If your park gig sounded "better" this year it's because the QW didn't have the laser-beam penetration that Bennett mentions. How many folks were consistently seated *on axis* with the PA?

Don't take it personally, this is a clear opportunity to demonstrate why a straight line isn't usually a good way to deploy a vertical array any more than a constant curvature is.

Go here - VERTEC Tech lib and read the AES papers by Mark Ureda, Mark Englebretson and David Scheirman.

I agree, I don't usually like to deploy a straight line array I typically splay the boxes, but as you can see the roof was a limitation. I sold my trap boxes because I needed the money for other gear. 90% of the time the Sumners are able to go full height.

 

[Shane Presley]

Re: TVI Audio C210ii Line Array

Brandon, you might want to make some small investments in the infrastructure around using a line array. It looks like 2 beams clamps and 2 manual chain hoists would have saved you lugging those lifts, and would have given you another 3-4 feet of trim height, would could have aided with your situation.

 

[Tim McCulloch]

Re: TVI Audio C210ii Line Array

I agree, I don't usually like to deploy a straight line array I typically splay the boxes, but as you can see the roof was a limitation. I sold my trap boxes because I needed the money for other gear. 90% of the time the Sumners are able to go full height.

You can get away with a lower trim height if you can get up some up-tilt on your array frame. A couple of degrees can be a big help. In your case we need to know where the array COG is relative to the lift mast. I suspect the array frame is creating issues for you regarding that distance.

Also, you are losing about 1.5' (from the way it looks on screen) between the fork extensions (err... never mind) and array frame. Skip the round slings and use shackles to get more trim height. Shane's advice about beam clamps and manual chain hoists is spot on, too.

System deployment/design is a little different for vertical arrays. You have to start with knowing how your speakers can be adjusted to cover a given area with a specific trim height. Sometimes changing trim a couple of feet, with a resulting change in the array frame (and array) angle can alter the results in productive ways. But without prediction software and some time spent listening to (and measuring) the results, it's a long process of trial and error.

 

[Brad Weber]

Re: TVI Audio C210ii Line Array

You're right, they don't have prediction software. They don't have data for EASE Focus, either. This is why you either need to be a line array measurement guru, or it's all just a crap shoot.

Offering 'line array' products without an associated array prediction method seems to reflect a manufacturer not understanding or recognizing the importance to their customers of being able to properly apply the products.

 

[Ivan Beaver]

Re: TVI Audio C210ii Line Array

Offering 'line array' products without an associated array prediction method seems to reflect a manufacturer not understanding or recognizing the importance to their customers of being able to properly apply the products.

WHAT? You mean you can't just put up a magical "line array' and get a perfect cylindrical coverage patter? That is what they say happens-----------

To bad reality does not match the pretty drawings presented----------

But as long as you "believe"-----------

 

[Brandon Blakeney]

Re: TVI Audio C210ii Line Array

You can get away with a lower trim height if you can get up some up-tilt on your array frame. A couple of degrees can be a big help. In your case we need to know where the array COG is relative to the lift mast. I suspect the array frame is creating issues for you regarding that distance.

Also, you are losing about 1.5' (from the way it looks on screen) between the fork extensions (err... never mind) and array frame. Skip the round slings and use shackles to get more trim height. Shane's advice about beam clamps and manual chain hoists is spot on, too.

System deployment/design is a little different for vertical arrays. You have to start with knowing how your speakers can be adjusted to cover a given area with a specific trim height. Sometimes changing trim a couple of feet, with a resulting change in the array frame (and array) angle can alter the results in productive ways. But without prediction software and some time spent listening to (and measuring) the results, it's a long process of trial and error.

Here is how we had the boxes splayed during the first time we had them out, can't go much more I will run into the lift. BTW, these fork extensions are made with rated hardware and are from The Light Source. I have ordered some shorter spansets for next time, I can't shackle straight to the fork extensions because the flybar is too wide.

 

[Rob Timmerman]

Re: TVI Audio C210ii Line Array

Offering 'line array' products without an associated array prediction method seems to reflect a manufacturer not understanding or recognizing the importance to their customers of being able to properly apply the products.

Or recognizing that at the bottom of the market, not everybody has time to model the room and run the array prediction software. And that's assuming that the arrays are long enough that they aren't better treated as vertical arrays of "point'n'shoot" boxes vs. a line array.

</flamebait>

 

[David Sturzenbecher]

Re: TVI Audio C210ii Line Array

Can you post a picture of the area of coverage. I see the angle between the bottom two boxes is less then the angle between box 2 and 3 from the bottom. That doesn't seem right....but if you are just shooting craps without any prediction software...who cares anyway.

 

[Tim McCulloch]

Re: TVI Audio C210ii Line Array

At least they appear to be the same, left and right... not sure if that gets a little gold star, though.