Why did I piss off the headline drummer?

Re: Why did I piss off the headline drummer?

All I said was that he should used the opener's drums. When he asked why, I told the truth. "They are tuned"...LOL

Edit: Let me explain. Headliner (local acts) shows up and makes a big deal about not sharing drums. The opener didn't mind. His drums sounded much better..
WHAT-Tune them-that is what you do with a guitar- With drums you just beat them and tell the sound guy he doesn't have the right tools to make the drums sound right.

I thought you knew that-------------------

Yes it is quite amazing how much better a set of drums sounds when tuned-and you don't have to use all sorts of "tools" to try and tame them. And it is a lot harder to make them sound bad etc etc.

But sadly-VERY few drummers can actually tune (or even realize that they NEED tuning)---------------------------------------------------

Sometimes the simple things make all the difference
 
Re: Why did I piss off the headline drummer?

I got my first drum at age 1 from my dad who was a drummer. At 45 I still can't tune they way I'd like to. Good drums, good heads, plethora of youtube videos, lessons from the drum store, etc...... Still crappy.

Some drummers got it, others don't. I fall into the don't category.
 
Re: Why did I piss off the headline drummer?

I got my first drum at age 1 from my dad who was a drummer. At 45 I still can't tune they way I'd like to. Good drums, good heads, plethora of youtube videos, lessons from the drum store, etc...... Still crappy.

Some drummers got it, others don't. I fall into the don't category.

The secret is that there is no magic secret, just some best practices and experience - I found Bob Gatzen's stuff useful and that's my typical approach. I consider myself pretty reasonable at tuning drums and have been doing it for a long time, but sometimes it just works and sometimes it is more of a fight. There are SOOOOOO many variables!

I often find that the room is one of the most significant factors. What sounds great in one space often doesn't work in another. An example of this - some recording studios (such as Ocean Way) have a "drumbrella" - basically a variable height acoustic baffle that they adjust above the drumkit which helps to adjust the resonance of the room to interact best with the tuning of the drums.

- Pensado's Place - ITL # 18 Part 1 - Eric Valentine of BarefootRecording and UnderToneAudio - YouTube - watch at about 2:15 - very cool

The point is not that you need a "drumbrella" at every live gig, but that some factors are beyond your control, so you need to tweak the kit at every gig if you really want the best result. Set it and forget it is not a good plan.

I also find that many drummers choose muffling and tuning which often does not really work well when mic'd (usually too dead), and doesn't really project well in un-mic'd situations either. It is a really useful exercise to play around with a mic and do a few recordings to note the difference between what you hear and what the mic hears, it can be eye opening for some drummers.
 
Re: Why did I piss off the headline drummer?

I got my first drum at age 1 from my dad who was a drummer. At 45 I still can't tune they way I'd like to. Good drums, good heads, plethora of youtube videos, lessons from the drum store, etc...... Still crappy.

Some drummers got it, others don't. I fall into the don't category.

This may be too much reading for one sitting but here is some information I wrote up about drums

About Drums

I describe several alternate approaches for the mechanical task of tuning drums, while this is not as linear or simple as tuning pitched instruments to specific note pitches. The subjective part of what combination of head tensions to target is a personal opinion so I do not offer specific voicing advice but some do... http://www.resotune.com/Drum tuning bible.pdf

If you can't afford a premium drum tuning aid, there are cheap IPHONE apps that are (slightly) better than nothing for their almost nothing cost. iDrumTech - Drum Tuner iPhone App | Drum Tuner, Drum Tuning and Drum Calculator. Even the cheap mechanical tuning aids are better then nothing for the truly challenged.

I talk to lots of drummers, and admittedly the ones who talk to me are already interested in tuning their drums, but I don't think all or most drummers don't care. More likely it's just too difficult. Some drums are harder than others due to mechanical imperfections, and even the good drums are not trivial to dial in.

I hope this info is helpful.

JR
 
Re: Why did I piss off the headline drummer?

Great reading John. Every drummer should be required to read and practice these techniques before being allowed on a kit. As a professional drummer for many years I had to learn most of this through trial and error, mostly error. This would have shortened my learning experience considerably. I tried almost every tuning technique available. I finally ended up tuning to the shell resonance with both heads and then dampening the outer edge of the heads a little or using a foam ring if needed depending on the kit, the heads, the room, the phase of the moon, or whatever until it sounded good. Also being a studio engineer very early on it was drilled into my head that we were "capturing" sound so I always tried to make it something worth capturing. Even today I will try to "help" the drummer get a good sound with the kit if we have the time. For most of the local multi band festivals with a 15 minute change over it is good that I have some really good channel EQ and some key filtered noise gates.
 
Re: Why did I piss off the headline drummer?

Great reading John. Every drummer should be required to read and practice these techniques before being allowed on a kit. As a professional drummer for many years I had to learn most of this through trial and error, mostly error. This would have shortened my learning experience considerably. I tried almost every tuning technique available. I finally ended up tuning to the shell resonance with both heads and then dampening the outer edge of the heads a little or using a foam ring if needed depending on the kit, the heads, the room, the phase of the moon, or whatever until it sounded good. Also being a studio engineer very early on it was drilled into my head that we were "capturing" sound so I always tried to make it something worth capturing. Even today I will try to "help" the drummer get a good sound with the kit if we have the time. For most of the local multi band festivals with a 15 minute change over it is good that I have some really good channel EQ and some key filtered noise gates.
My suspicion is that damping rings are a remedy to mitigate a poorly cleared (closely lug-matched) head. The higher resonances are excited when the drumhead is struck closer to the edge, so the damping rings suppress the higher resonances and dissonant sound that they make when they are diffuse sounding multiple series at the same time instead of when lugs are closely matched to make just one single series of the exact same higher overtone resonances... or not.

I am still learning about the physics, there seems to be remarkably little documented about the science behind this very old instrument, while that is probably true of all musical instruments, with manufacturers preferring to keep their secret sauce secret.

JR
 
Re: Why did I piss off the headline drummer?

My suspicion is that damping rings are a remedy to mitigate a poorly cleared (closely lug-matched) head.

JR

Not necessarily, although certainly the sound of a poorly tuned drum will suck less if it damped.

But another reason drummers use rings, or tape, or moongel is to have more variety of tones available from a standard thickness head, like the Remo Ambassador or the Evans G1. When the gig calls for a less forceful, more open sound, such as jazz, blues, or singer/songwriter, one can remove the damping material and let the heads ring out. But when a gig calls for a more muscular sound, then damping stuff helps give more definition to the hit, and helps to keep fast fills and single stroke rolls from sounding washy and indistinct.

Rings or moongel (which I prefer) enable a drummer to get a punchier sound, when desired, and not have to change to a thicker batter head like a pinstripe or a hydraulic. So, tuning to an ear pleasing pitch with desired relative fundamental between the different sized drums is one thing, but the need for damping material - either external, or built into the head - is another.

Dave Weckl's tuning primer from his DVD is a very straightforward sequence for the above average drummer to follow. He, like most advanced drummers I know, use a methodical tuning approach, with a standard drum tuning key.

This site also gives good tips for getting various tunings and timbres: Tomás Howie Drumming Web - Tuning
 
Re: Why did I piss off the headline drummer?

My suspicion is that damping rings are a remedy to mitigate a poorly cleared (closely lug-matched) head. The higher resonances are excited when the drumhead is struck closer to the edge, so the damping rings suppress the higher resonances and dissonant sound that they make when they are diffuse sounding multiple series at the same time instead of when lugs are closely matched to make just one single series of the exact same higher overtone resonances... or not.

I am still learning about the physics, there seems to be remarkably little documented about the science behind this very old instrument, while that is probably true of all musical instruments, with manufacturers preferring to keep their secret sauce secret.

JR
As I remember it, Richard Feynman had a great derivation of the equations of motion of a drum head and the first few modes, along with illustrations, in his Lectures on Physics, Vol 1. Unfortunately I don't have my copy anymore to tell you the details, and the last time I read it was about 1976. Not only was he a Nobel laureate in physics, he was a conga drummer. He did (and taught) physics much better than he played congas, documented on several videos on YT.
 
Re: Why did I piss off the headline drummer?

I won't argue about what it sounds like, but to discuss the mechanics of what is going on with drum head edge damping, the lower the resonances the less head movement is occurring near the rim edge. The maximum fundamental (thump sound) movement occurs at the mid point of the drum head. The higher order the resonance the closer to the rim edge that major anti-nodes (local peaks in head movement) occur. While the higher resonances occur all across the drumhead damping them around the rim edge damps them all. So a damping ring will preferentially damp the higher resonances more than lower resonances because there is more head movement from them bumping into the damping ring and losing energy.

Do what sounds good to you... I just try to make sense of why things do what they do.

JR
 
Re: Why did I piss off the headline drummer?

As I remember it, Richard Feynman had a great derivation of the equations of motion of a drum head and the first few modes, along with illustrations, in his Lectures on Physics, Vol 1. Unfortunately I don't have my copy anymore to tell you the details, and the last time I read it was about 1976. Not only was he a Nobel laureate in physics, he was a conga drummer. He did (and taught) physics much better than he played congas, documented on several videos on YT.

You mean like this
circle11.gif


Heres a good link with equations for the vibrations of a "theoretical" drumhead, with rigid rim edge node, Dan Russell's Acoustics and Vibration Animations

In the real world drums are more sloppy than that (or they wouldn't be so sensitive to lug tension mismatches), plus you have the coupled mass of the two heads interacting, not to mention that they are coupled both together by a drum shell with resonances of it's own, and a captive air column between the two vibrating heads, several moving parts.

I read the one book I found on the subject "Science of Percussion Instruments" by Thomas D Rossing and it's not going to hurt me if I drop it on my foot.

JR

[edit- sorry I don't mean to spam the list with a bunch of drum tuning promotion... Most of the stuff I've posted is at the first "about drums" link i posted /edit]
 
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Re: Why did I piss off the headline drummer?

Very cool animations, thanks for that link JR. I did not see the equations for the circular membrane, maybe I missed them. The equations I have seen are gross oversimplifications anyway so they just give you a rough idea of what variables matter and how they interact. You are right about real world complications. Damping and membrane stiffness, elasticity and density are all factors in addition to the imperfect rigidity of the rim and lugs and the coupled air columns and second heads that you mentioned. For conga heads you also have veins in the skin and variations in thickness/stiffness/density as well, which make real skins sound better than plastic skins. All of which make the waveform less sinusoidal and less precise in its pitch. Drums are more art than science at this point. Fortunately.
 
Re: Why did I piss off the headline drummer?

Very cool animations, thanks for that link JR. I did not see the equations for the circular membrane, maybe I missed them. The equations I have seen are gross oversimplifications anyway so they just give you a rough idea of what variables matter and how they interact. You are right about real world complications. Damping and membrane stiffness, elasticity and density are all factors in addition to the imperfect rigidity of the rim and lugs and the coupled air columns and second heads that you mentioned. For conga heads you also have veins in the skin and variations in thickness/stiffness/density as well, which make real skins sound better than plastic skins. All of which make the waveform less sinusoidal and less precise in its pitch. Drums are more art than science at this point. Fortunately.

Careful sir, that would make drummers artists... and we can't have that sort of misinformation floating around.:?~:-?~:???:

In all seriousness, excellent information from Mr. Roberts and Mr. Friedman-Jimenez. As a drummer I've never given that much thought to the physics of drums and heads other than the relationship of the two heads and the shell. Thank you for a new POV.
 
Re: Why did I piss off the headline drummer?

Very cool animations, thanks for that link JR. I did not see the equations for the circular membrane, maybe I missed them.
It's been a while since I visited that website, I believe the animations are generated from curves derived from the underlying math. I thought he listed the equations too. It is pretty clear from observation of the resonance modes what the critical variables are (mass, tension, and distance or length of waveform period). This development of overtone resonances squeezed into a round surface area explains the non-harmonic nature of the sundry overtones.
The equations I have seen are gross oversimplifications anyway so they just give you a rough idea of what variables matter and how they interact. You are right about real world complications. Damping and membrane stiffness, elasticity and density are all factors in addition to the imperfect rigidity of the rim and lugs and the coupled air columns and second heads that you mentioned. For conga heads you also have veins in the skin and variations in thickness/stiffness/density as well, which make real skins sound better than plastic skins. All of which make the waveform less sinusoidal and less precise in its pitch. Drums are more art than science at this point. Fortunately.

If there was no science to it, I would not be involved at all. I am not a musician. I do however have a patent for an invention that allows me to isolate each lug and measure them one at a time for the quality of their match to each other. Since this is patented I can share how it works. I first sweep the drum head to identify the sundry lower resonances, then at a lower resonance of the correct order (same as the animation I posted earlier) I excite the drum head with two speakers then measure the time delay/ phase of the returning waveform. I can determine from the phase of this standing wave I generate in the drumhead whether the single lug I have isolated for measurement is sharp or flat compared to the reference source.

I can't (won't) tell drummers what pitch to target, or how much to detune between the two heads (whatever sounds good to them), but i can help them with technology to "clear", or match the lugs to each other at whatever note(s) they select, and get back there again and again. I joke I only make the microscope, they must cure the disease.

Note: it's called "clear" because when the lugs are well matched to each other the entire drumhead vibrates with the least different overtones, as compared to mismatched lugs when there are multiple closely spaced but different overtones. The well cleared drum sounds more pure, while drums do not make pure notes, they can make a pure series of resonances.

The drum community is still behaving in a pre-science manner, even though technology exists to precisely quantify drum tuning, this is only half the story until the drummers are given rational targets to tune their kit to (only one manufacturer AFAIK offers a note target.. DW). It is still early days for applied science to drum tuning, but better than we were.

JR

PS: The conga is an interesting case, and perhaps of more interest to speaker guys because of how much the tuned rear chamber/port contributes to the sound. The head behaves more like the one-headed concert tom, since there is no second head to interact with.
 
Drum tuning, what a concept..

I can't (won't) tell drummers what pitch to target, or how much to detune between the two heads (whatever sounds good to them), but i can help them with technology to "clear", or match the lugs to each other at whatever note(s) they select, and get back there again and again. I joke I only make the microscope, they must cure the disease.

The drum community is still behaving in a pre-science manner, even though technology exists to precisely quantify drum tuning, this is only half the story until the drummers are given rational targets to tune their kit to (only one manufacturer AFAIK offers a note target.. DW). It is still early days for applied science to drum tuning, but better than we were.
JR,

It is estimated that the cost of reaching the Clear state in Scientology is $128,000, how much does your drum tuner cost?

Drummers using the Ludwig Octa-Plus had target notes back in the 1970's.
One of the references says less than 5 complete sets were shipped, I swear I must have worked with those 5 sets with 10 different drummers during the 1970's and 1980's.

After listening to drum roadies tuning an Octa-Plus set for hours, hearing a piano tuner do his work seemed like a relief...

Art
 

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Re: Drum tuning, what a concept..

JR,

It is estimated that the cost of reaching the Clear state in Scientology is $128,000, how much does your drum tuner cost?
Less,,, but some drummers think the cost is similarly out of reach. :-(
Drummers using the Ludwig Octa-Plus had target notes back in the 1970's.
One of the references says less than 5 complete sets were shipped, I swear I must have worked with those 5 sets with 10 different drummers during the 1970's and 1980's.
I wish more drum makers suggested target tuning ranges. While getting the drums to the correct general note tension to make the drum and heads combination happy is only part of the job. The last fraction of lug tension adjustment is pretty important (IMO).
After listening to drum roadies tuning an Octa-Plus set for hours, hearing a piano tuner do his work seemed like a relief...

Art
Reminds me of NAMM shows in the piano hall the day before the show starts with tens of piano tuners all hard at work.

You need to visit PASIC the drum industry trade show.. imagine several thousand drums in a large venue all getting randomly whacked at.

When I showed there a few times I gave away ear plugs as a booth favor.. but even I avoid PASIC (and all trade shows) these days.

JR