X32 for theatrical work.

Kevin Maxwell

Junior
Feb 6, 2011
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X32 for theatrical work.

I thought I would start a new thread where anyone who is interested in using an X32 for theatrical shows could comment about the console.

I got the chance to be shown the console by John DINICOLA a Music Group Product Support specialist. I want to thank John for the walk thru and answering all of my never ending questions.

I would also like to thank Joe Sanborn from the Music Group for helping to arrange my time with John.

I think the X32 looks like it could be very usable for the kind of musical theater show that I do. There are just a few things that I think are needed to make it really work smoother for me.

The Go button isn’t in a bad place but it would be better if I could use the user definable buttons. And I would like to have a back button. So if I can assign a button to be “recall next scene” (GO) and assign one of the buttons to be a “recall previous scene” (BACK) that would really help.

I also would like to be able to make one of the buttons work as a “save (overwrite) the present scene” with any changes I have made on the console. I need to make very frequent changes as we are running limited rehearsals and I don’t have the time to call up the scene page and hit the save button.

I usually use over 100 scenes for a musical. The limit of 100 scenes is something I would like to not have to figure out a way to have to live with. It is nice that the scenes can be flagged to be skipped. But there doesn’t seem to be a way to insert a scene. I would love to see the capabilities of using decimal point scenes. Lighting consoles have had that capability for a long time. But I don’t know if they would ever even consider it for the X32.

Lets say that they were to increase the number of scenes to how about 300, I think it would be helpful if the scene limit wasn’t that you could only write into scenes 1-300. But that you could number them with spaces left between used scenes and go up to a much higher number (if they don’t do decimal point scenes) but they can still make it have a 300 written scene limit. Just not hard and fast numbered slots for the scenes. Does this make sense?

The other little feature that would be nice for me is if I could assign a user key to be “set the selected channel to nominal” like I can do on many other consoles. I use this feature to quickly write the scenes into the console from a cue spreadsheet before we start the rehearsals. It gives me a great starting point. To make this work I have the trims safed so I set them at a sound check.

This is all I can think of for now and it is already probably too long for most people to read.
 
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Re: X32 for theatrical work.

I bought my X32 specifically for musical theatre work - having compression and recallable eq on each channel so that I can change it when the talent changes costumes (HATs play havoc with the EQ of a radio mic as I'm sure you know) is one of the main attractions.

Agree about cue numbers, point queue and especially inserting a cue! For the time being I'll try recording each cue twice and skipping one till I need to record a new cue over it. By the time I get to saving cues I know the show very well so I'll pretty much know where I will need cues.

The Prev/Next buttons work in a slightly strange way as they refer to the NEXT scene to be used, not the active scene. So to go back one scene you have to press PREV twice - that seems counter-intuitive to me and is different from the way most lighting consoles work.

As far as the 100 cues limit goes, I plan save multiple shows on the USB stick and just load the next show as needed for now.

You should be able record a nominal channel setting in the library and just apply that to a channel as needed..... just tried that - yes, that works fine.
 
Re: X32 for theatrical work.

As far as the 100 cues limit goes, I plan save multiple shows on the USB stick and just load the next show as needed for now.

But what if you make a drastic EQ change because an actor is sick? When you load a new show, will the EQ not be reset?

The 100 cue limit is really a killer for me. The last musical I programed on an M7 I think I used 100 cues 3/4 of the way through act 1. A mid scene show load would spell certain doom.

Here's hoping there are enough theater folk that raise a huff so we can get that limit increased. I think 300 would be a good number as well.
 
Re: X32 for theatrical work.

Loading the new show should not impact what is actually running at the time, AFAIK. It should only change anything when you activate a cue. But surely you'd have the same problem even with 300 cues - you'd still have to update the stored EQ for that channel in every cue, or the EQ will still be reset when the next cue is activated. You can SAFE the EQ on all channels to prevent a cue changing it ,but that is across the whole board so might be a problem if there were EQ changes for other channels in a cue that did want to take effect.

Feature request - can we have param safe on a per-channel basis please?
 
Re: X32 for theatrical work.

Loading the new show should not impact what is actually running at the time, AFAIK. It should only change anything when you activate a cue. But surely you'd have the same problem even with 300 cues - you'd still have to update the stored EQ for that channel in every cue, or the EQ will still be reset when the next cue is activated. You can SAFE the EQ on all channels to prevent a cue changing it ,but that is across the whole board so might be a problem if there were EQ changes for other channels in a cue that did want to take effect.

Feature request - can we have param safe on a per-channel basis please?

I don’t have an x32 but from what I saw I am pretty sure you can do the param safe on a per-channel basis and you can do some parameter safes per scene. I am not sure if you can do a parameter safe per channel per scene. If that makes sense.
 
Re: X32 for theatrical work.

When a show becomes so complicated or detailed that houndreds of scenes are required, isn't it time to look at show control software?
 
Re: X32 for theatrical work.

When a show becomes so complicated or detailed that houndreds of scenes are required, isn't it time to look at show control software?
I do shows with just the scene recalls all the time with digital consoles. I am not even familiar with what “Show Control” is. Who makes it and how does it make it easier? Do you use “Show Control”? Is it a cheaper way to do this then using an X32? I even use auto mixers for the dialog parts using post fader direct outs from the digital console to feed them. I have used many different digital consoles and am checking out to see if the X32 will work for my needs.
 
Re: X32 for theatrical work.

When a show becomes so complicated or detailed that houndreds of scenes are required, isn't it time to look at show control software?

DCA Assignment changes are what I work with mostly. Theater used to just use MUTE scenes. It is very easy to use 3+ mute scenes on one page of a script if it is a very active song with changing solos.
 
Re: X32 for theatrical work.

I don’t have an x32 but from what I saw I am pretty sure you can do the param safe on a per-channel basis and you can do some parameter safes per scene. I am not sure if you can do a parameter safe per channel per scene. If that makes sense.

I do have an X32 and I tried it before posting - you can't. You have a choice of Scene Safe - where you can set which aspects of the console are actually recorded in the scenes, Param Safe where you select which individual parameters of input channels, mix busses etc can be changed by scene recalls (but these apply to ALL channels, not just to the selected one) and Chan Safe where you can prevent a specific channel being changed by a scene recall - but that means ALL channel settings, including the fader - which is probably not what you want to do!

Unless there is something buried somewhere - but I can't find it.
 
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Re: X32 for theatrical work.

I do shows with just the scene recalls all the time with digital consoles. I am not even familiar with what “Show Control” is. Who makes it and how does it make it easier? Do you use “Show Control”? Is it a cheaper way to do this then using an X32? I even use auto mixers for the dialog parts using post fader direct outs from the digital console to feed them. I have used many different digital consoles and am checking out to see if the X32 will work for my needs.
There are many "Show Control" packages out there, I've been playing with CTR Electronics - CSC Theatre Show Control and Sound Playback Software this one, but haven't got started trying to integrate it with the X32.
There are basically two ways to control a console with show control software. The simplest method is to have the software recall scenes, and the advanced method is to have the software run a full console automation. The former method can be done over Midi, while the latter method requires Midi over ethernet to be fast enough.
With the scene recall method, you build a library of scenes, and the software recalls the appropriate scene. This allows you to do big shows with a limited amount of scenes because you can reuse scenes over and over. Does of course require a lot of planning.
The full automation method involves recording the complete console setting and movements in the software, and running the whole thing like it was remote controlled.
A semi- automation method that normally works in Midi, is to have scene recall with some limited automation adjusting the scenes, this can be very versatile.

So far I'm still unsure what will actually work on the X32 as is, and what is possible to achieve with some patching in a midi patching software, but I intend to explore it when I get around to setting things up. Our next theatrical performance is in November, so that is my timeframe for now. Unfortunately, we just spent a fortune on new premises that will contain a performance stage and a studio, and I have to do all the work on my own, so time might get a bit tight :uhoh:
 
Re: X32 for theatrical work.

I find the comments quite interesting considering they are referencing an under $3,000 mixer. The fact that you can even be considering it for a show with hundreds of scenes, that you think it might support per channel parameter safing, etc. says a lot about how much things have advanced in regards to both the technology and the productions. But I also think you may be expecting a bit much, at least for today.

"It doesn't work like a lighting console" does not seem like an inherently bad thing. I don't really care how lighting consoles do things or about making the audio console work the same way unless it makes sense to do it that way on the audio console.

Show Control is just that, a way to control individual elements or an entire show. Show control systems also usually support timeline, schedule and manual cues. And some incorporate or integrate with audio and video media servers.
 
Re: X32 for theatrical work.

I find the comments quite interesting considering they are referencing an under $3,000 mixer. The fact that you can even be considering it for a show with hundreds of scenes, that you think it might support per channel parameter safing, etc. says a lot about how much things have advanced in regards to both the technology and the productions. But I also think you may be expecting a bit much, at least for today.

"It doesn't work like a lighting console" does not seem like an inherently bad thing. I don't really care how lighting consoles do things or about making the audio console work the same way unless it makes sense to do it that way on the audio console.

Show Control is just that, a way to control individual elements or an entire show. Show control systems also usually support timeline, schedule and manual cues. And some incorporate or integrate with audio and video media servers.

From what you say show control looks interesting. But it sounds like it is much more complicated then what I need. I have a tendency to safe almost everything but fader movements. And I usually even safe all of the area mics and only recall the sub masters for those. I really just want the right mics up at the right times so I can mix from there. I safe the mutes now so if there is a problem with a mic I can mute it without it coming back to life in the next scene and when the problem is fixed I can un-mute it. These will never be the kind of shows where a trained monkey can hit a go button on cue to make it happen.

I don’t want it to work like a lighting console; my comment about lighting consoles was just the fact that the ones I have worked on could do decimal point scenes. And I would like to see that in audio consoles. I have lighting console stories but this is an audio forum. All of the digital consoles I have used for these shows don’t have the capabilities of doing decimal point scenes. But I don’t know why they don’t build them that way if the lighting consoles can do it, why can’t the audio consoles do it. Is it really that hard to program that capability into it? Maybe it is. Every person that I have talked to that does musical theater wants that capability.

I think it is great that things have gotten to the point that a $3000 digital audio console can do so much and is so close to doing what I want for the musical theater shows that I do. These are school productions. They are schools in a heavily arts invested community. They are budget conscious but strive for excellence and put on some great shows.

I have gotten to a point that I won’t do a musical theater show without a digital console. And I am trying to figure out if the X32 will work for my needs.

We rent the digital consoles that we use for these shows. And it is sometimes getting hard to find what I want to use in my area for a price that works for the budget. I am close to NYC but they have a way over inflated idea of what rental rates should be. This summer I couldn’t get one mixer because it was being used by the sound company (that owned it) for ONE of the 10 days that I wanted it. I have used digital consoles that cost from about $55,000 to $12,000 for these shows. Some of those were a great deal I got or a demo unit. We have paid enough in renting digital consoles over the years that we could have paid for a very nice digital console. But if we had bought at the beginning it wouldn’t have been the right console.

I have developed ways to work around the limitations of most of the consoles that I have used. Some are more frustrating then others. But I usually don’t get all set up and into the venue for rehearsals till the Monday before a Thursday or Friday night opening. Sometimes the show runs for 2 weekends and sometimes it is only one weekend. So I don’t have a lot of time to make everything work. That is why I am asking for the capabilities to make it go quick.

Brad, do you do musical theater shows or do you just install systems. What do you use or install for them?
 
Re: X32 for theatrical work.

Ok , I'm thinking out the box here so forgive me if this is crazy.

Here's some facts, the x32 can store 100 scenes in a show , you can control the x32 using a pc / iPad and there is "show control" software on the market .

So let's combine all these ideas together :

The remote control software is connected via Ethernet so must use standard network protocol messages to set the x32, so if we can work out the protocol ( or if behringer were willing to release the details) then an application could be developed that would allow you to load as many scenes as you could ever need by selecting it on a pc then remote controlling the desk .

Comments ??

Kev
 
Re: X32 for theatrical work.

Ok , I'm thinking out the box here so forgive me if this is crazy.

Here's some facts, the x32 can store 100 scenes in a show , you can control the x32 using a pc / iPad and there is "show control" software on the market .

So let's combine all these ideas together :

The remote control software is connected via Ethernet so must use standard network protocol messages to set the x32, so if we can work out the protocol ( or if behringer were willing to release the details) then an application could be developed that would allow you to load as many scenes as you could ever need by selecting it on a pc then remote controlling the desk .

Comments ??

Kev

Yes, spot on. This has been my thinking all along, I have been thinking of emulating the Remote as a softwarepatch between Midi and the Xcontrol protocol, and then simply patching the internal (in the PC) Midi to whatever program you want to communicate with, wether it is for having a full channel DAW controller, recording a full automation etc.
Two problems: time and the fact that my programming days pretty much ended back when digital consoles and internet were sci fi :cry:
 
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Re: X32 for theatrical work.

Yes, spot on. This has been my thinking all along, I have been thinking of emulating the Remote as a softwarepatch between Midi and the Xcontrol protocol, and then simply patching the internal (in the PC) Midi to whatever program you want to communicate with, wether it is for having a full channel DAW controller, recording a full automation etc.
Two problems: time and the fact that my programming days pretty much ended back when digital consoles and internet were sci fi :cry:

Well luckily enough Im an Electronics Engineer and software developer as a day job so lets see what we can do in my spare time (very limited !)

My x32 is packed in its flight case ready for a gig tomorrow so I cant check much for couple of days but it looks like the x32 is using UDP packets on port 10023. When you use the remote control software without a x32 connected its constantly sending "/INFO" as a message .

Let me start recording the protocal and see if I can decode it.

Kev
 
Re: X32 for theatrical work.

Well luckily enough Im an Electronics Engineer and software developer as a day job so lets see what we can do in my spare time (very limited !)

My x32 is packed in its flight case ready for a gig tomorrow so I cant check much for couple of days but it looks like the x32 is using UDP packets on port 10023. When you use the remote control software without a x32 connected its constantly sending "/INFO" as a message .

Let me start recording the protocal and see if I can decode it.

Kev

Brilliant!
I was going to use Netshark to record some communication and take it from there, but we could ask Behringer for some info on protocol etc. it is not supposed to be a secret and providing this information to potential developers of nifty stuff is a win win proposal for everybody.
 
Re: X32 for theatrical work.

Brilliant!
I was going to use Netshark to record some communication and take it from there, but we could ask Behringer for some info on protocol etc. it is not supposed to be a secret and providing this information to potential developers of nifty stuff is a win win proposal for everybody.

Perfect, i used wireshark last night that worked really well . I will send Uli a message and see what he says.

Kev
 
Re: X32 for theatrical work.

Perfect, i used wireshark last night that worked really well . I will send Uli a message and see what he says.

Kev
Yes, Wireshark obviously, I even forget my own name sometimes :D~:-D~:grin:
Maybe Jan Duwe is the man to ask for this kind of information, although I'm certain Uli will be able to give an answer and forward the request, Jan is probably The Man in this respect.
 
Re: X32 for theatrical work.

Did some port sniffing and from the format of the packets that I saw it looks like its using OSC for the remote control.

More digging still to do :)

Kev
 
Re: X32 for theatrical work.

Did some port sniffing and from the format of the packets that I saw it looks like its using OSC for the remote control.

More digging still to do :)

Kev

From the downloads page: "The XControl communicates via UDP/OSC protocol through the X32 Ethernet port"

From the Gearslutz forum by "Bratwurst": "There OSC stuff will be documented and can be downloaded for free, so you could even build your own App for your iPhone or Android smart phone. You could build it with f.e. Touch OSC. "
Bratwurst, is that one of Christian Boche's pseudonyms?

and on this forum, by Christian: "I was told, that Behringer will give access to everybody to the X32-OSC setup up. So you could you your iPhone or Android smart phone and remote control the X32 with f.e. TouchOSC."

So we can assume OSC, and hopefully we can get some documentation of the implementation. I forgot that this had been mentioned before.