How important is VCA capability on your mixer?

D

Daniel Postilnik

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Jan 14, 2011
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When I learned about VCA mixing, the first thought I had was - "Wow, if I ever plan on using groups at all, not having VCA control would be a serious limitation."

The primary problem is that a group fader does not affect post-fade sends. If I have backing vocals grouped with a little bit of reverb on the aux send, when I lower the group's fader I'll still have the wet effects signal at the same level in the main mix. Alternately, I have aux-fed subs and the drums grouped together. When I lower that group's fader, the sub is still pumping at same level despite the signal from the drum mics being lower in the main mix.

In both situations, you would need a second hand to change whatever is being aux-fed when you move the group fader. But how do you know how much to change it when you move the group fader (other than by listening)? Is it being fussy to say that this is an unacceptable lack of control? In most of your experience does not the absence of VCA not amount to a problem?
 
Re: How important is VCA capability on your mixer?

This all depends on how you are using groups. If you are using them for processing (e.g. compression) or zone feeds, VCAs simply aren't a substitute. If you are using groups simply for a logical grouping, then VCAs do have certain advantages. Ideally, you'll have both, but given that VCAs are primarily a convenience feature, while groups allow you to do some interesting things with routing, if I had to pick only one, it'd be a group. Oddly enough, this seems to match what I've seen on the market (I don't know of any colsoles with VCA groups that don't also have audio groups).
 
Re: How important is VCA capability on your mixer?

Rob Timmerman said:
This all depends on how you are using groups. If you are using them for processing (e.g. compression) or zone feeds, VCAs simply aren't a substitute. If you are using groups simply for a logical grouping, then VCAs do have certain advantages. Ideally, you'll have both, but given that VCAs are primarily a convenience feature, while groups allow you to do some interesting things with routing, if I had to pick only one, it'd be a group. Oddly enough, this seems to match what I've seen on the market (I don't know of any colsoles with VCA groups that don't also have audio groups).
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That's right, no VCA mixer doesn't also have audio groups. So I guess I'm wondering whether having audio groups (for whatever purposes audio groups are ever used) without VCA control is an acceptable compromise.
 
Re: How important is VCA capability on your mixer?

Love the VCA's, love the idea of voltage control without the audio having to run through a separate buss on it's way out.

Have you tried assigning your verbs to the sub-groups so it gets bumped together. I suppose the big challenge would be if you were limited with your FX and didn't have enough to give your BGV's it's own unit or rack. I made a habit of putting things together so all of the drum effects went with the group. Your sound for a channel (the source and FX) is the sound to some degree so you might want to raise and lower as a unit.

Aren't VCAs/DCA's great?
 
Re: How important is VCA capability on your mixer?

Kip, VCA's are an incredibly cool technology.

Assuming I have enough effects channels, it's easy enough to attach those to the group faders rather than do it through auxes. But how would you get around the aux-fed subs problem? I think it's important to have control over how much each channel gets sent to the subs. Is this where the matrix comes in handy?
 
Re: How important is VCA capability on your mixer?

Daniel Postilnik said:
Kip, VCA's are an incredibly cool technology.

Assuming I have enough effects channels, it's easy enough to attach those to the group faders rather than do it through auxes. But how would you get around the aux-fed subs problem? I think it's important to have control over how much each channel gets sent to the subs. Is this where the matrix comes in handy?
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Kip is saying to route the FX return back to the Group that contains the dry signals, that way if you change the Group level the ration of dry/wet stays the same.

The best way to control inputs sending to post-fader aux-fed subs, front fills, etc is via either VCA/DCA or direct manipulation of the channel fader.

Have fun, etc.

Tim Mc
 
Re: How important is VCA capability on your mixer?

Daniel Postilnik said:
That's right, no VCA mixer doesn't also have audio groups. So I guess I'm wondering whether having audio groups (for whatever purposes audio groups are ever used) without VCA control is an acceptable compromise.
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In what situation? You seem to know the answer in your particular situation (aux-fed subs), but are asking a general question of some kind - not sure which? Are you trying to determine if you are being picky when specifying a system if you request a VCA console? Are you trying to purchase a mixer? Who decides? Who pays? There are certainly situations where a board with no VCAs can work perfectly adequately.

Boards without VCAs are becoming less common due primarily to the proliferation of digital boards. Nearly all popular digital boards - even as far down the food chain as an 01v96 have VCAs or some rougly equivalent functionality.
 
Re: How important is VCA capability on your mixer?

I think mixing/routing style in part determines the importance, but that mixing/routing is also determined by what is commonly available. Most of my shows are less than 16 inputs, done on a variety of desks with a variety of capabilities. When I walk up to patch FOH I still almost always patch dynamics on single channels and effects off of an aux. If either groups or VCA's are available I rarely go beyond splitting instruments/vocals.

In bluegrass, a common setup seems to be the one vocal mic, backed up by 3 or so supplemental instrument mics and a bass channel. In that situation, I might be inclined to assign each channel to a single group, especially if it is a large board (thing Midas Heritage) in a festival setting. Then the relative levels can be mixed at the center of the board regardless of where the channels got placed.
 
Re: How important is VCA capability on your mixer?

Jay Barracato said:
In bluegrass, a common setup seems to be the one vocal mic, backed up by 3 or so supplemental instrument mics and a bass channel. In that situation, I might be inclined to assign each channel to a single group, especially if it is a large board (thing Midas Heritage) in a festival setting. Then the relative levels can be mixed at the center of the board regardless of where the channels got placed.
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If it is a large format console like an H3000 (your reference) it probably has VCAs, in which case you can mix in the center of the console with them, and not worry about the fact that when mixing with group masters non of your post fade sends track the output level with the direct sound. I have never really understood the fascination with mixing on group masters. If a console or a channel count is too big to mix on the input faders there are probably VCAs to remote control the input faders. I generally only use the DCAs on a PM5D for those inputs on the other layer, I can mix 24 inputs on the input channels.

Mac
 
Re: How important is VCA capability on your mixer?

Bennett Prescott said:
Midas makes a convenient way to set that send to unity gain, but the mechanism is the same. There is no real difference between an aux bus and a group bus, except the aux is variable.
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If the mixes are set to be unity gain on a switch, instead of variable gain on a knob, is it a fixed gain aux, or a group?

Mac
 
Re: How important is VCA capability on your mixer?

mackerr said:
If it is a large format console like an H3000 (your reference) it probably has VCAs, in which case you can mix in the center of the console with them, and not worry about the fact that when mixing with group masters non of your post fade sends track the output level with the direct sound. I have never really understood the fascination with mixing on group masters. If a console or a channel count is too big to mix on the input faders there are probably VCAs to remote control the input faders. I generally only use the DCAs on a PM5D for those inputs on the other layer, I can mix 24 inputs on the input channels.

Mac
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Mac, I think we are basically in agreement. My point was that on an extremely limited input show, that assigning single channels to single groups just changes the location you are mixing at.
 
Re: How important is VCA capability on your mixer?

Jay Barracato said:
Mac, I think we are basically in agreement. My point was that on an extremely limited input show, that assigning single channels to single groups just changes the location you are mixing at.
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My point was that no it doesn't. Using groups to mix changes the level of the group, but not the post fader sends on the input channel. This matters for effect sends, and subs on aux sends. Taking the group master out entirely kills the group, but leaves the post fade aux sends open. This would not happen if mixing on either the input faders or VCAs.

Mac
 
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