Loomed Sub Multis - power, XLR, NL2

[Stuart Høgg]

At a lot of our smaller, Lounge-level gigs, there's quite a lot of pressure to speed up rigging and derigging. One thing I'm thinking of doing is making up sub-multis which have power, speaker lines, and XLR lines all loomed together. The idea is to drop one at each person on stage, and just plug up what's required at the other end. I'd imaging a box with a couple of power outlets, two NL2 speakons, and maybe four XLR lines. This would cover most eventualities for instrumentalists and backline, and maybe build a bigger one for the drumkit. We typically have power, amp rack, and stage box all close enough together that I wouldn't need unmanageably long tails to reach all of them.

We are in 240v land here, so we wouldn't have much issue running power out from a central point. Normally I'm running cables along the same routes, but individual lines, meaning more time spent coiling cables and more general annoyance.

I'm curious if anyone else out there has done something like this. (Or indeed, considered it and decided against) I can see clear advantages to this way of working, wondering if there are any downsides I'm not aware of at the moment.

 

[Silas Pradetto]

Re: Loomed Sub Multis - power, XLR, NL2

Problem with doing anything like that is it's very proprietary. Working around your fixed-layout setup might end up taking more time than just running cables independently, and you're going to want to shoot yourself the first gig where things can't follow the usual setup.

It might make more sense to just get a few drop snakes for the mic lines, one downstage center and one upstage center (drummer, plus backline). Looming monitor power and signal does make sense, but the cables are expensive unless you use e-tape.

 

[Philip LaDue]

Re: Loomed Sub Multis - power, XLR, NL2

For once I agree with Silas, drops that specialized are only going to lead to frustration.
Making them up on a per gig, or short term basis with friction tape could work though.

I love combo cables for powered speakers because you almost always need both of the cables.

 

[Stuart Høgg]

Re: Loomed Sub Multis - power, XLR, NL2

We already have plenty drop snakes, I've found myself using a similar solution for monitor lines (8 core cable carrying four NL2 circuits) I figure if we go with this, I'd need to build at least six looms so we have enough to go around.

 

[Graham Wakefield]

Re: Loomed Sub Multis - power, XLR, NL2

We already have plenty drop snakes, I've found myself using a similar solution for monitor lines (8 core cable carrying four NL2 circuits) I figure if we go with this, I'd need to build at least six looms so we have enough to go around.

The only thing I might think about doing would be snapping NL8s on the back of those and building something at the rack so it's just a quick plug in. It all depends on how you work normally though, this may end up costing you more time and you might end up having to run more cable.

 

[brian maddox]

Re: Loomed Sub Multis - power, XLR, NL2

so i'll be the dissenter in the crowd. i think your idea still has merit. you're essentially wiring to performers [or two if they are close together and their needs are minimal] rather than to central breakout areas. could certainly make for a simple stage layout. and it'd be easier to tell folks how to run it the cables. just 'run one of these to each of the stage positions' instead of 'put this 6-way stage box down center and this 8-way one stage right and this one stage left and daisy chain these power drops and run this monitor cable to that speaker and and and and...'

couple of suggestions. make all your looms the same length. and make them fairly long. color-code both ends VERY clearly, since you'll be patching them in a central location. and my favorite, use letters rather than numbers for your mic and monitor lines. i find it far less confusing to say that the lead vocal mic is on red C and patches to stagebox 7 than to say that vocal 1 is on subsnake 4, channel 3, to stage box 7.

also, you're going to want to make sure you can plug multiple monitor lines into single channels on your amp rack for when you're only running one or two monitor mixes.

one last thought. if you're not sure this is worth it, bundle up some cables you've already got and go do a few gigs and see what works and what doesn't before you go to the trouble of making boxes and the like.

good luck...

 

[Stuart Høgg]

Re: Loomed Sub Multis - power, XLR, NL2

so i'll be the dissenter in the crowd. i think your idea still has merit.

Thanks, Brian. I'm thinking that I'll probably make a small test batch of maybe half a dozen of these and see how I get on with them. I've been paying a bit more attention to how stages have been laid out, and it certainly seems like everything is all ending up in the same place.

My thinking is to have a few length options, to avoid having huge amounts of slack cable left over. Maybe 5m, 10m, and 15m which would cover almost all eventualities. And yes, serious colour coding. Separate letters / numbers for the different lines is a very good idea, thanks.

 

[Silas Pradetto]

Re: Loomed Sub Multis - power, XLR, NL2

Thanks, Brian. I'm thinking that I'll probably make a small test batch of maybe half a dozen of these and see how I get on with them. I've been paying a bit more attention to how stages have been laid out, and it certainly seems like everything is all ending up in the same place.

My thinking is to have a few length options, to avoid having huge amounts of slack cable left over. Maybe 5m, 10m, and 15m which would cover almost all eventualities. And yes, serious colour coding. Separate letters / numbers for the different lines is a very good idea, thanks.

You will not want to have various length options, because then you have to pick lengths by application. You'll use your 50 footer in one place, when the 25 footer would have worked, and find out later that you needed the 50 footer up front and now you have to switch them. It's far easier to just have them all the same length and keep the slack offstage, so you can always pull more if needed.

As I mentioned above, I still don't think this will work for any sort of varying gigs. But if every gig is the same band, or is set up the same, or if a church wanted to do this where everything is always the same, then it definitely makes sense.

Of course, in an install, time doesn't really matter and mults wouldn't really help anything other than neatness.

 

[Stuart Høgg]

Re: Loomed Sub Multis - power, XLR, NL2

You will not want to have various length options, because then you have to pick lengths by application. You'll use your 50 footer in one place, when the 25 footer would have worked, and find out later that you needed the 50 footer up front and now you have to switch them. It's far easier to just have them all the same length and keep the slack offstage, so you can always pull more if needed.

But by that thinking, wouldn't you just keep all your cables the same length? The same principle applies to individual XLR or speaker lines in much the same way...

I'd agree that there's no point in trying to make too fine a distinction between lengths, but having short ones for musicians on the near side of the stage and long ones for musicians on the far side would hopefully make some kind of sense...

As I mentioned above, I still don't think this will work for any sort of varying gigs. But if every gig is the same band, or is set up the same, or if a church wanted to do this where everything is always the same, then it definitely makes sense.

I'd started thinking along these lines because so often we are running all three connections (mains, speaker, and XLR) to the same place. And whilst there are some performers who would only need two out of the three, it seems to make sense to

There have been quite a few occasions where I've thought that I've got the stage all wired, only to find that, for example the drummer is using a click and needs a mains outlet beside the kit after all. Having everything at each position without the effort of running separate cables (and then untangling them at the end of the night) is quite attractive.

 

[Silas Pradetto]

Re: Loomed Sub Multis - power, XLR, NL2

But by that thinking, wouldn't you just keep all your cables the same length? The same principle applies to individual XLR or speaker lines in much the same way...

No, because I have more than enough of any length of mic cable to do the entire stage with it. There are always tons of extras. I also have a ton of every length of speaker cable, so I am never saying to myself "oops, I used the 25 footer for subs, now I need to switch that for the 10 footer so I can use the 25 footer here..."

You will probably not have tons of extra mults; they're just too big and expensive to keep many extras in various lengths. Maybe you could keep one extra of the longest length you anticipate, just in case?

 

[Rob Spence]

Re: Loomed Sub Multis - power, XLR, NL2

I have 2 cable collections. One for the A rig and one for B rig. I standardized on all 20' XLR cables for the B rig to eliminate having to choose the right cable and having to find it (I know I have a ... here somewhere). I had found myself and helpers spending too much time picking the optimal length. Now they are all the right length. Oh, btw, I use a subsnake on stage that I locate just beyond the drum kit so the 20' cables do all reach.

 

[Stuart Høgg]

Re: Loomed Sub Multis - power, XLR, NL2

I standardized on all 20' XLR cables for the B rig to eliminate having to choose the right cable and having to find it (I know I have a ... here somewhere). I had found myself and helpers spending too much time picking the optimal length. Now they are all the right length. Oh, btw, I use a subsnake on stage that I locate just beyond the drum kit so the 20' cables do all reach.

Whilst I do appreciate the simplicity of this approach, don't you find yourself with a lot of slack cable left kicking around? My hunch is that on a smallish stage it would just end up kicked off to the side and tangling horribly...

 

[Tim McCulloch]

Re: Loomed Sub Multis - power, XLR, NL2

Whilst I do appreciate the simplicity of this approach, don't you find yourself with a lot of slack cable left kicking around? My hunch is that on a smallish stage it would just end up kicked off to the side and tangling horribly...

It sounds to me like the failure mode is with the labor and not the kit. While I like and appreciate neat cable runs and elegant solutions to problems, I think this one could be corrected with public flogging or whatever works in Glasgow these days. :roll:

Looms of various kinds are great so long as you play the same size stages with identical band setups but fall when you move to larger spaces, change configurations or players. They can also transform themselves into tangled messes without significant human intervention; I think gremlins get into the work boxes during transport and put knots in them... yeah, that's it, that's the ticket!

From a business standpoint, will the time savings put cash in your pocket, reduce warehousing, inventory & transport costs? Will those savings exceed the costs of building band-specific cable packages?

Have fun, good luck.

Tim Mc

 

[Lee Dickinson]

Re: Loomed Sub Multis - power, XLR, NL2

At first I liked this idea. We, like others, often set up 'pods' for festival or multi-band gigs. A mic, a DI / instrument mic, and a monitor at 6 or 8 positions. But things move around too much. Sometimes the DI is downstage of the performer, sometimes it's upstage. Same with power. Sometimes it goes to the pedalboard, sometimes to a keyboard, sometimes to an amp that could be fairly far away from the performer.

 

[Silas Pradetto]

Re: Loomed Sub Multis - power, XLR, NL2

At first I liked this idea. We, like others, often set up 'pods' for festival or multi-band gigs. A mic, a DI / instrument mic, and a monitor at 6 or 8 positions. But things move around too much. Sometimes the DI is downstage of the performer, sometimes it's upstage. Same with power. Sometimes it goes to the pedalboard, sometimes to a keyboard, sometimes to an amp that could be fairly far away from the performer.

I agree with you Lee. When I set up a stage for a show, I plan ahead for virtually any band setup I can expect. Here is what I do:

• Stage power quad boxes dropped near the drummer (hat side usually), plus on either side of the drummer, and also downstage left and right. If the stage is very wide, I will get downstage center also.
• I have drop snakes for the drummer, and sometimes one for downstage center. The digital snake goes mid-stage left or right, lining up with the front of the backline usually.
• I'll usually put out four vocals in the front plus one on the drummer if I know it's needed.
• For backline, I start with a pair of 906s stage left and right, a single DI stage left and right, and a stereo DI.

I usually label each mic or DI with gaff so we know where it goes, and so the mics stay in order. The above list of preparations covers about 90% of rock bands, and we can do 5 minute changeovers all day without a tangled mess at the end.

All it really comes down to, as Tim said, is good help. Keep the slack coils at the point of use, so they can easily be moved around without tangling with anything else. This is especially critical for things like powered monitors that have two cables going to them. Also, everything should be coiled properly, over-under, so the cables pay out properly when moved. As long as cable routes are planned out, everything is long enough, and the help is paying attention, a festival situation can be handled quite easily without any issues.

While the OP was primarily about speeding up load-in and load-out, the above advice should help with that too. I don't think we've had a show yet that takes more than an hour to coil every cable on the stage, using only 2-3 guys. In fact, the whole rig is usually out the door in an hour, with me working by myself...

And remember, everyone does things differently, so there might be a better way you've thought of to cover your average show.

 

[Brian jojade]

Re: Loomed Sub Multis - power, XLR, NL2

Having a drop for each performer at the base of the mic stand would be nice, if it has everything needed. 4 XLRs, power and speakon in one bundle would cover just about everything for THAT performer, . I like it. Then you have to use little patch cables for everything else. You'll have more 'drops' but less spaghetti this way. However, not sure how much time you will save. The heavier and bulkier a cable is, the longer it takes to set up. Realize that you have to wrap the heavier cord, which takes longer than a single cord to wrap, plus you have to wrap all your little patch cables too. The realized time savings are likely to be minimal at best.

 

[Cole Lofink]

Re: Loomed Sub Multis - power, XLR, NL2

Buy powered monitors and loose the speakons, now you've cut your cables down by 1/3. Now get some Custom boxes like these. Get 4 of the (25ft, 50ft, 50ft, 75ft) and you should be cover. Put convertCON connectors on your fan-outs and use them for either sends or returns.

 

[Rick Stansby]

Re: Loomed Sub Multis - power, XLR, NL2

Whilst I do appreciate the simplicity of this approach, don't you find yourself with a lot of slack cable left kicking around? My hunch is that on a smallish stage it would just end up kicked off to the side and tangling horribly...

I've never met a mic position that was too close to work with a 25' cable. I just coil the end near the base of the mic stand (so I don't end up with a pile of coils by the subsnake). When the mic has to move there is usually enough extra cable to accommodate the move. I do use shorter cables on the drum kit, but otherwise its 25' or longer.

To the OP. I feel that if you have a lot of looms (with only a few mic lines each) you are going to spend a lot of time cross-patching. Why not just drop a 12 channel sub-snake down stage center and patch all downstage mic lines there. Put the vocals in the last 3-5 channels, start the keyboards and acoustic guitars on the first few channels, and then meet in the middle.

 

[Lee Dickinson]

Re: Loomed Sub Multis - power, XLR, NL2

Buy powered monitors and loose the speakons, now you've cut your cables down by 1/3.

What? How do you figure? Now you've got a power cable AND a signal cable.

Real dedicated powered monitors might be great, but my general opinion is that now you've got a volume control, assorted pushbuttons, and two typically non-locking power connectors (edison on one end, IEC on the other) on an additional cable. That's just way too much crap to be messed with, including controls that can only be reached from on stage.

How is that EVER simpler than a single speakon cable?

 

[Philip LaDue]

Re: Loomed Sub Multis - power, XLR, NL2

Real dedicated powered monitors might be great, but my general opinion is that now you've got a volume control, assorted pushbuttons, and two typically non-locking power connectors (edison on one end, IEC on the other) on an additional cable. That's just way too much crap to be messed with, including controls that can only be reached from on stage.

"Real" powered monitors have locking power connectors, and no buttons or knobs. (except a resettable fuse or breaker)