Breaker Panel Tie-in... What is the CORRECT way to pull power?

When you are tieing power into a Breaker Panel, how do you pull power off the panel and to your Distro?

What is the CORRECT way of doing this?

Now that I have the 4/4 power cable, I can tie into the breaker panel directly (if I needed to). Most of my venues have a 14-50 Range Plug on the wall availble.
 
Re: Breaker Panel Tie-in... What is the CORRECT way of pull power?

By all means, if it's available, take advantage of the installed plug. If there is no plug, offering advice would be a mistake on my part. I will simply put it this way: There are two kinds of electricians in the world - slow ones and dead ones.
?;o)
Al
 
Re: Breaker Panel Tie-in... What is the CORRECT way of pull power?

Matt, you can't mess around with any venue's electrical panels. Only a qualified electrician can do that. So, if you're at the point of needing to tie in, then you're also at the point of raising your rates enough to pay an electrician to do it, or you need to have the venue install your plug or provide their own electrician.

If the venue provides someone to tie you in that isn't licensed, I don't know what I would do, since the liability should still be on them. Just always meter your power and have a good, solid, attorney-approved contract!
 
Re: Breaker Panel Tie-in... What is the CORRECT way of pull power?

As others have said, you are not qualified to safely tie-in your tails yourself. Also the internet is not a suitable source for instructions. This needs to be performed by a licensed electrician.

If you learn about how power works, you can double check the work that the electrician does for you. The ground and neutral wires of your tails will go to the ground and neutral buss bars respectively, and the hots will go into a 2 pole 50A breaker. You may need to provide this breaker, the breaker needs to match the panel you are being tied into. The cable needs strain relief where it leaves the panel, and you need to be able to close the panel up properly after the tails are tied in. You may need to provide a strain relief for one of the knock-outs on the box, and if you do, you will need to provide the proper sized metal plug to fill the knock-out after the show.

Once the electrician has tied you in, then you can meter the outlet on your tails. You should see 120v from each hot leg to ground and each hot leg to neutral. 208-240 V from hot to hot, and 0V between ground and neutral. The electrician should have metered it before you, but learning how to meter your power is a safety precaution that you can take.

Once again, don't perform the tie-in yourself, that job is for a licensed electrician. I wouldn't have told you this much if I thought you were going to try to tie-in by yourself.

If you are in the same venue regularly you might want to get a proper outlet installed permanently. It will cost more than one temporary tie-in, but once it is installed you can use a permanent outlet over and over. Even if there is a permanent outlet it is a good idea to meter it before you plug in.
 
Re: Breaker Panel Tie-in... What is the CORRECT way of pull power?

Matt,

Back in college I worked for a general contractor and our electrician basically did not try to stock any of that. Between the number of brands and types of panels, as well as types of breakers, the number of combinations you might run into is enormous. However, the amount of work to install a surface mount 50 amp box near the panel isn't really anything more than what it would cost to have an electrician do your tie in (and then remove the tie in later). I would stongly recommend a permanent plug. If you are talking to someone local around here and you think they might want a second opinion, you can give them my number.
 
Re: Breaker Panel Tie-in... What is the CORRECT way of pull power?

I understand about a qualified electrician doing the tie in.

However, trying to prepare my work box for tie in... What would you bring for the Electrician to use if the venue doesn't have anything?

Tails - a 10' piece of wire with a Female CS connector on the end (or Nema 14-50 if you prefer). That way you can leave it at the end of the night, and pick it up later, if the electrician can't come back right after the show. Or you can drop it off early...
50A-240V breakers - They are pretty cheap at Home Depot (~$10 each). When you have to do a tie-in, go to the venue and look at the box to find out what brand and model of breaker is needed. After a few gigs you will have 3-4 breakers that will cover most of your needs. Always check in advance with any new venue.
Long Zip ties for strain relief on the cable (when necessary)
Voltmeter
Allen Wrenchs, sockets and screwdrivers - The electrician should have these, but you never know.

Make sure you keep these things in a place that can be quickly accessed before you unload the rest of the gear. That way you can hand it off right when you get to the venue, and you can unload the truck while sparky ties in the cable.

As Jay stated a permanent outlet will be much cheaper in the long run. I always try to encourage the venue to install a Nema 14-50, or a CS6369 outlet as a long term solution. I know that all of the smaller sound companies in the area can adapt to either one.

Next weekend I am having an electrician from the local university tie in my power at a side stage. The university is paying his wages. Their portable distro has lots of edisons with GFI. There is also a strain relief, permanently mounted in one of the cutouts. I give the electrician my breaker and tails a few days in advance. When I show up at the stage, the portable distro is there, and my tails are tied in. He provides all the tools for the installation. At the end of the weekend I leave the tails there. On Monday I pick them up from the electrical shop on campus. The 10' length makes it easy for me to pick it up and drop it off in my car (or on my bike). Also it is less expensive, just in case it gets lost. It would be much more expensive if there was another 40' of SO wire attached to it. Other times I hand over the tails when I arrive, and take them when I leave. Either way it is easier to deal with a short cable.
 
Re: Breaker Panel Tie-in... What is the CORRECT way of pull power?

Matt,

Bring a few different kinds of 50a breakers, and a 14-50R on a short length of cord (enough to reach the ground) with tails. Then the electrician can install it and you can plug and unplug yourself. It doesn't matter if the electrician is "licensed" or not, you simply want them to do the work so the liability is not on you. Make sure they tie into the breaker and not into bus bars, and make sure that they tie your ground and neutral solidly. Then meter it yourself before plugging in to it or turning anything on. Then put some load on it, doesn't have to be much, something non-show-critical and meter it again.
 
Re: Breaker Panel Tie-in... What is the CORRECT way of pull power?

Then meter it yourself before plugging in to it or turning anything on. Then put some load on it, doesn't have to be much, something non-show-critical and meter it again.

I can not stress this enough. Meter everything. I have had "qualified" electricians screw things up so bad you wouldn't believe it. Meter everything. Especially when in a hotel. I can't believe that most hotels haven't burned to the ground based on the quality of the "electrical" staff.
 
Re: Breaker Panel Tie-in... What is the CORRECT way of pull power?

So, wait, you mean there's live performance venues out there that are not equipped with three phase cam locks?

Country Joe's Watering Hole and Swanky Roadhouse is not a performance venue, unless you consider the vermin parade a form of live entertainment.

Tim "played that hole 30 years ago, they still have the same power" Mc
 
Re: Breaker Panel Tie-in... What is the CORRECT way of pull power?

A cheap Nema 14-50 connector is about $10 with wire and breaker about $40 ( if you can put it next to the breaker box) If I know that I will be @ the venue or the gig just pays good enough i will suggest i will pay for the materials if they pay for instalation. They can/should pull a owner permit to wire it themselves. i have a buddy who will do it for $100 + permit who is a electrician, less if I have his favorite drink on hand.
 
Re: Breaker Panel Tie-in... What is the CORRECT way of pull power?

If venue owners would just spend the extra $300 on a disconnect life would be so much easier for many of us.
 
Re: Breaker Panel Tie-in... What is the CORRECT way of pull power?

Well technically, we shouldn't be touching a disconnect box, either. Or, in some peoples opinions, a non simultaneously disconnecting plug like a cam.

On top of breakers and tails, I also carry a few different sizes of punch put cable clamps. I have had two events held up for tie ins that did not penetrate the box properly.
 
Re: Breaker Panel Tie-in... What is the CORRECT way of pull power?

I've hired electricians to tie in power for our Church stage twice, once temporary and more recently for a permanent install. Both times I wound up with 220v where I should have had 120v. The first time I lost a 8 channel dimmer pack four hours before doors and had to scramble to find a replacement on a Saturday night. The second time I lost one cheap four channel dimmer pack and my router before I wised up enough to double check the "professionals" work...... Only half the panel was wired wrong.

Yeah, I'm kind of slow. Winston
 
Re: Breaker Panel Tie-in... What is the CORRECT way of pull power?

I'm confused a bit here. I know that its "PC" to always say "Have a licensed electrician do anything." But how many of you guys actually have an "electrician" tie in the power for you? Only at union venues is there an electrician present, and most outdoor venues with a generator I end up being the one doing the tie in because I don't want it done wrong. I have challenged an "electrician" who didn't believe that there are generators with 139V outputs instead of 120V. When I showed him that the generator he rented was for mining equipment and not for sound he balked and said that it must be a "typo" because theres no such thing as 139v...

I have difficulty trusting people around the power for my system.
 
Re: Breaker Panel Tie-in... What is the CORRECT way of pull power?

I'm confused a bit here. I know that its "PC" to always say "Have a licensed electrician do anything." But how many of you guys actually have an "electrician" tie in the power for you? Only at union venues is there an electrician present, and most outdoor venues with a generator I end up being the one doing the tie in because I don't want it done wrong. I have challenged an "electrician" who didn't believe that there are generators with 139V outputs instead of 120V. When I showed him that the generator he rented was for mining equipment and not for sound he balked and said that it must be a "typo" because theres no such thing as 139v...

I have difficulty trusting people around the power for my system.

If it involves opening (screws, lugs, bolts, etc.) any box which should be sealed closed according to code, I refuse to do it. Tying into a generator that is not part of a structure is a little different story, but the one generator company I have experience with does that as part of the delivery, so that has not been a problem.

I do carry a meter and double check what is provided.