The way real pros do it

T

Travis Watson

Freshman
Jan 11, 2011
23
0
0
South Texas
Ok so I went into a new venue yesterday to run sound for one of my steady bands. They have a new install from I don’t know who but is clearly not qualified. As I walked in I saw hanging from the roof joist a pair of MRX 215's or whatever their # are but wait those aren’t meant to fly. They had two eye bolts in the side at the tops and one in the back for a pull back. Fail #1 of so many I won’t go on to count. Then on the back wall next to the stage I see a huge install amp rack about 7 feet tall. Inside was a Furman power supply an analog dbx x-over and 8 crown xls1500 amps spaced a few spaces apart. Ok so there are four wedge mixes two tops and four single 18 subs in the system. Except for the two wedge amps the other six were all bridged and into the remaining rig, I mean four amps for four single 18" subs (harbinger I believe about 800w program) and one amp each for the two tops. I asked the expert house engineer wtf is up with that and he says it is clearly the best way to do it all the real pros do it this way. I said I believe they would have proper sized amps and less of them run stereo. But these are the newest and best technology Crown has, I said they are the entry level amps from Crown and their best would be the I Techs. That drew a blank stare for a min and then he told me that the guy from Crown or whoever said that these were the best and the best way to run them. So the subs run bridged at 8 ohm on four XLS 1500, is clearly better and cheaper to say run all four on one proper amp at 4 ohms a side. Yep because these amps don’t pull any power and I can have all 8 in one 20 amp circuit, and so he did, all ran into the Furmin power supply. At this point I give up he is clearly the man and knows uhh something, maybe.
So a walk out to FOH and we have a 24 ch. GL2400 Ok not bad I can work with this. So I look at the massive rack next to it, big slant top rack with many below. On top we have a light controller then a DBX 1046 and a DBX231 under that so I go we are compressing the mains aren’t we, well yeah all the pros do it. Under that, a sonic crapamiser then two DBX 215’s for the four wedge mixes, because the 15 band is better for monitors. I think that was all that was on the top slant part so looking down the main rack were a bunch of 266xl a couple of 1074’s and two DBX I didn’t recognize. The #’s were covered in tape but they had a grey face so I asked what these two were. He said they are the desser’s and they are the greatest thing yada yada then some more cheap stuff and then finally at the bottom were two Lexicon MX200’s. There was more processing than channels and inserts combined but every possible insert point had something in it and I mean everything. I tell the guy sometimes less is more but he didn’t get it.
This part I just don’t know what to think. He had the snake head right next to the 1 foot drum riser and I see him start patching in a sub snake for the drums that was just on top of the riser maybe 18” away. I say are you seriously going to patch a sub snake to go 18”? Yep it makes it easier to mic the drums, I should have known that. So there it sat all 30 feet of sub snake coiled up 18”away from the main snake with 25’ mic cords in it.

Ok on to sound check kick sounds ok out front but no monitor. Theirs vocal in monitor but no kick he runs off to look to see if its plugged in. Me I’m going if there is vocal in it, it must be plugged in but I guess it was worth the check just to be sure. So I’m looking at the 15 band graph and it is death to all I mean just about every fader was cut all the way or just about so I go uhh Mr. soundman I think the problem is here but he’s looking at the back of the amp so I pull the freqs. Back up and hey the monitor starts to come alive, go figure. So he comes back and pulls out a book of pictures of everything and says well that’s not the way it’s supposed to be set. Me I really want to know this so I ask why is that. Well we had some guy with a RTA mic come in and get the best sound out of everything and the wedges need to have a curve like this. But its death to everything not a curve, I then tell him you know the little dent in the middle that’s nothing when you pull down that’s a cut , up is a boost and you really only need to cut frequencies that are a problem . They can’t all have a problem. Oh I get your type of soundmen that come in here and think you know everything and try to change it all that’s why we have pictures so we can set it right. So he set the drum monitor eq the way the pic was and then guess what the drummer started complaining monitor stopped working. At this point I realize I am in the presence of a total pro maybe even a genius. So he sets all the comps and gates etc. by the pics and were on to vocals but they keep cutting out so I say man sounds like bad cords so off he runs to the stage with cords and I’m looking at the comps and the gates are cutting everything off. And on it goes.
So band comes on and its ok a few tweaks here and there and it’s ok a little build up of lows but the main eqs are boosted there, well because that’s where the pic says to. Anyway he sits down to mix or rather just sit there and I reach over to mix and I ask how long you been at this and he says 10 years I think that’s a stretch but hey I say I’ve been at it almost 30 years. So I ask some basic stuff for weeding out the posers and guess what, fail. Nothing like a well seasoned house sound guy. The week before one of my friends touring band had heard that the week before, the touring headline guy was so pissed that they brought in their own rig. Its Texas country on Wednesday night there and they are trying to get some big names. Anyway that was my night, big fun lots of laughs next time I’ll bring in my rig.
 
Re: The way real pros do it

Steve Tarak said:
Real pros don't take this attitude. Next time help him instead of slamming him on a public bbs.

my .02
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Hello,

I don't think Travis meant to slam the guy's ignorance...but, only to slam the guy's indifference and lack of enthusiasm in trying to provide the best sounding, easiest, most practical rig, given the gear that's available at "his" venue.

Anyone with 10 years (or even 2 years) of experience should have self- learned, or absorbed by observing others, that some of the inadequacies should be apparent.

Reading his post, I got the impression that this house guy...didn't either want help from Travis ...or feel that any help was warranted....and that happens all too often.

Cheers,
Hammer
 
Re: The way real pros do it

Steve I tried to help the guy but I'm one of those sound guys that dont know anything and just mess up his system. He had to be alpha, his rig his way, thats why the Pear Ratz took their own rig in so they didnt have to deal with him. I am the BE for OSO Texas the band that went in ther that night and was paid to make sure it sounded good. I was not trying to slam the guy but this was my experience with him and he didnt need help in his opinion. At least he didnt mix on the gain knobs, ya ever try to explain thats not the way to mix to someone that is sure it is.

Hey Tim, its Theo's Billiards in Corpus. Tim you hear about the deal between Ty Deitz and Forrest Allen the other day.
 
Re: The way real pros do it

Travis,
I'm not sure what's worse, the system you described, or the puncuation and formatting of your post! :lol:

I'm just giving you a hard time, but that was honestly kinda difficult to read all the way through. It sounds like you made the most of a tough situation, We've all been there at one time or another.

I believe that zeroing a console & outboard (excluding system processing) prior to handing it over is a professional courtsey that should be extended to every guest engineer, but occasionally you will get the guy who thinks whole heartedly that you are trying to sand bag him by making him start from scratch.... Some people just don't see the bigger picture yet.

The 8 bridged amps all on one Furman is brilliant though.... just excellent stuff!

Hope your time on the road gets better!
 
Re: The way real pros do it

Sounds to me like a typical Installer doing exactly what the customer told him to do. "Protect my investment from the DJ's we bring in regularly." Can't fault the installer. Choked out like that it will last for years! LMAO
 
Re: The way real pros do it

There is a privately run performing arts centre near me where they ask you not to touch the eqs etc last time I saw it there wasn't any frequency on the graphic that didn't have at least 3db cut or boost on it I hit bypass and turned the mains on the console down from +5 to -10 and all was good actually a nice little D+B rig getting choked, the rather jaded system tech come lampie come video tech was a little upset as he had spent "ages with that auto eq" and therefore it must be right, aye so it was! Short sharp discussion and he stomped off to his cave full of dark arts controls and left me alone for the night though at the end he couldn't get to that bypass switch quick enough. G
 
Re: The way real pros do it

Many of the new P.A.C's here have rather nice systems but the installers put heavy multi-band compression in the system processor and left no way to turn it off. Totally unusable for music but it keeps the theater department from blowing things up, I guess. Our rider calls for full access to system processors so we usually just wind up using our stuff. To a person, we're told the rooms never sounded so good. Except for one house tech, but his boss could hear what sounded better. I wonder if he's still employed. :roll:
 
Re: The way real pros do it

As an occasional system installer as well as a system user, I've been on both sides of this issue. Do you:

1. leave the "keys to the kingdom" exposed for the theater department or metal band or whatever to blow up/modify so far from neutral that you end up getting called back constantly because "you put in a crappy system" or "It's broken and it's your fault"?

2. Put in a password protected faceless DSP with parameters so safe that with every red light on on the console it's impossible to run the system into the last 6dB, ensuring it will never break, but never run anywhere close to its full potential?

3. Start somewhere in the middle offering suggested tuning settings and moderate limiting hoping that the intelligent house tech you've enjoyed working with never leaves to be replaced with the usual run of the mill "DJ/home theater experts" that for some reason seem to end up in positions like this?

My current thought is that a password protected locked down DSP with moderate limiting settings and an easily bypassable EQ like in Gordon's situation are the best compromise. I will gladly release the password of the processor to the end user in exchange for a signed agreement stating that the installation's warranty ends and the user takes full responsibility.

Mark - if I was a venue owner and a band's rider called for "full processor access", I'd tell them to jump in the lake, and not the Dolby kind, either. The risk/reward ratio doesn't look too good for the venue. What are the chances the band engineer du jour can make the system "better" in 30 minutes of pink noise than a competent installer can with a couple days of alignment and tuning? Will this person return the system to its original state, both in terms of the same amount of smoke left in various components as well as electronic parameters? Why would the BE want that liability anyway?

Either the system meets the act's needs, can be quickly colored to taste with a graphic EQ, or it can't be, and another system needs to be brought in.
 
Re: The way real pros do it

mark anderson said:
Our rider calls for full access to system processors so we usually just wind up using our stuff.
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This doesn't fly in my house. If you want full access to the system processors, then you can bring your own rig, or require the promoter to rent in a full rig. My responsibility is to the House and our equipment. Because we are a City owned entity, it's almost impossible for us to replace broken gear in a timely manner, and we have no mechanism in place for an at fault act or production company to just swap out a working speaker or amp for the one they blew up.

Now, that being said, if you seem like you know what you are doing and you're not a dick, I'll probably let you look at the XTA or Galileo settings under my supervision. But, I'm not going to let you reconfigure the entire system just for your one night 90 minute long show.
 
Re: The way real pros do it

Justice C. Bigler said:
This doesn't fly in my house. If you want full access to the system processors, then you can bring your own rig, or require the promoter to rent in a full rig. My responsibility is to the House and our equipment. Because we are a City owned entity, it's almost impossible for us to replace broken gear in a timely manner, and we have no mechanism in place for an at fault act or production company to just swap out a working speaker or amp for the one they blew up.

Now, that being said, if you seem like you know what you are doing and you're not a dick, I'll probably let you look at the XTA or Galileo settings under my supervision. But, I'm not going to let you reconfigure the entire system just for your one night 90 minute long show.
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+1

But, this argument would take into account that the rigs' properly set up and processed....unlike the crap that the OP had to deal with.

Hammer
 
Re: The way real pros do it

I have seen a number of "full access to every knob" clauses. Just because someone has access does not mean that they are suddenly entitled to turn the output gain on every dsp channel up to +26 and send 45Hz to the comp horns. It usually means that the system owner gets to watch the "sound expert" tweek the settings and decide if the system can take it or not. I have never let someone mess with my driverack or omnidrive, but I would do whatever they wanted, like "raise the crossover point to 100hz" or "more gain on the sub output" , both of which I understand. If the system could not take it, then I'm not going to make it take it-- no mr soundmaster, you can't run my system without "limiting of any kind."
 
Re: The way real pros do it

I understand what you're saying and I could understand limiters or perhaps a high ratio compression with a threshold set to protect the system.

Instead, the installers seem to think they (I'm assuming it's different installers, could have all been the same person) were mastering a Metallica recording comprised of teen-aged thespians with lapel mics. The thresholds are set incredibly low and the ratios are high. You can't get the sound out of the speakers without squashing it. And given the vocal control of young actors and the competence of some of the sound volunteers, that fine.

But the lack of dynamics and the weirdness of inappropriate multi-band on acoustic music is just nuts. I've suggested that they, at the very least, have a couple of different compression options: 1) don't let the kids break it 2) musical performance by trained amateurs 3) impress the pros but keep them from doing something stupid

I can't see spending that kind of money only to have the system so far protected it's useless for all but the least demanding performances. To me it's exactly analogous to Mr. IHaveAPicture from the OP. It doesn't matter if it's a driverack or a box of rocks that's preventing the system from being useful, the result is the same. Installers who don't provide options or keys to the house manager are doing their clients a disservice. Try explaining to the house manager why my $5k system sounds better than their $60k system. I can't, but I can agree with them that it shouldn't.
 
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Re: The way real pros do it

I run into this type of situation a lot. I work with an artist that performed on the Grammy stage, but prefers to play 300-500 seat rooms. It's a tough position to be in when your artist has high expectations and your venue has low production quality. Never the less I have seen it all when it comes to the battle of system processing. Most of the time there is a way to teach people a little something that will blow their minds and get them on your team. It helps when you are bringing in your own front of house rig that is tight and orderly. It shows them you mean business.

After that I set-up my smaart rig, which I like to like to think I am proficient at operating. I believe that I can improve a system in under 30 minutes, including any house wedges. My tactic is tell the house engineer that I have two responsibilities- first to the artist to give him the system that he needs to perform his show and secondly to the house to be sure that I leave it better than I found it. I find that asking the right questions can create a sense of superiority to these small rooms and it helps to take control.

In a trap box situation you might ask them about the horizontal coverage of the cabinet or where the crossover points are between the subs and the mids. I don't really have any intention of changing them- I just want to know how much he or she understands about their system. From there I might move on to Inverse Square and such. I have to admit it's a game of diplomacy that I have to play and I usually win someone over in 20 mins or so. It's a silly game really, but it's necessary to give the house guy comfort in that you're ready to work together on maintaining the system and give the audience the show that they have paid to see.

I rarely have to dig into a system processor but I can quickly show you what your system is doing in Smaart and offer you any information that I find. For some reason I find that house systems are over processed while the monitors are just over equalized. I typically let the house watch as I work and giving him a visual tool (smaart) their brain starts to come alive. Smaart is the one tool that I don't leave the house without. Of course there are times when it does nothing but sit there and look pretty, especially in rooms that I have tuned.

Regardless, you are going to run into people that are going to fight you the whole way, most pros will not. You have to find the casual things you can say that show you mean business. Find out as much as you can about your house engineer as quickly as possible. If they are studio guys I tell them that "I also engineer the albums, but that's not what I like to do- I was asked to because of the live engineers ability to think and move fast to get sounds,"

Whatever your approach is, be prepared to modify and you can get your way. When all else fails then you have to go back to your artist and let them know what is going on and ask for their help in approaching a higher power in the food chain. This should be done at a last resort because it's always best to let them have a clear mind to perform, not worry about the sound that they cannot hear. If the system has the potential to work and you're being blocked by a house guy to a point where it won't work then you just need to tell the show purchaser and venue manager your position and that you can't return to their venue and may not even perform tonight. Adding that you would rather cancel and refund tickets than put on a bad show. You have to hope it never gets that far.
 
Re: The way real pros do it

mark anderson said:
I can't see spending that kind of money only to have the system so far protected it's useless for all but the least demanding performances. To me it's exactly analogous to Mr. IHaveAPicture from the OP. It doesn't matter if it's a driverack or a box of rocks that's preventing the system from being useful, the result is the same. Installers who don't provide options or keys to the house manager are doing their clients a disservice. Try explaining to the house manager why my $5k system sounds better than their $60k system. I can't, but I can agree with them that it shouldn't.
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Mark, I don't know your (or the OP's) venues, and I wasn't the installer of them. Certainly there are many bad, even horriffic installs out there and I'm not doubting your experience, or the OP's as unusably cruddy. I'm also not calling into question your ability to improve those systems if you were given the "keys".

The problem here is there are an equal number of stories floating around installer circles about horrible clients that seem to be able to destroy even the most well designed system. Some of these folks also seem incredibly talented about coming up with such creative stipulations (speakers can't be visible, can't be larger than a Kleenex box, subs have to be in the Men's room in the lobby, mains have to be hung on the 80' ceiling and not dropped any lower than that, my brother works for Behringer, etc.), that it's not hard for a $60,000 system to sound worse than a reasonable quality portable system with speakers in optimum locations pointing at the listeners, etc.

I don't believe there is a perfect solution to this - neither extreme attempts to try to protect the system in all cases, or extreme BE demands of full control of a system they didn't put in and don't know how or why it is set the way it is, are reasonable. The best solution of somehow weeding out the unqualified operators, both on the house side and the BE side, seems difficult and/or economically not viable. Until then the battle goes on, and I - like you, continue to schlep a bunch of gear to get the job done, even with funny looks from the house manager wondering why he just spent $60K on sound that nobody uses.
 
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