EAW KF760 Line Array (with KF730 under hang)

[Brandon G Romanowski]

Re: EAW KF760 Line Array (with KF730 under hang)

This auto design should cover to 150'.
EDIT: I realize now you cannot see the distance markers ...... but it has the upper most 740 pointing only 91' out. The coverage angle of the box will end at 150' but who would actually set their array like this ?

 

[Joe Fustolo]

Re: EAW KF760 Line Array (with KF730 under hang)

Hello Brandon,

please keep in mind, and maybe it is too literal, but you/we are programming Resolution to "Cover" the area that we are dictating to the software of where the seating areas or audience areas are....
Again most of the time the "Auto Designer" is what i would consider a good starting point but doesn't and can't account for all rooms and all tastes. So I would suggest using the "Auto Design" as your starting point to get a larger array into the Array Tabs quickly and then tweak the coverage to what you will need for the particular venue....
Now in some cases, installs come to mind, yes I want the top of the coverage to be at the back end of the seating or audience areas to help prevent a lot of reflected energy off the rear walls... but in a concert type setting I would agree that I wouldn't set the top of the coverage to the same area.

 

[Joe Fustolo]

Re: EAW KF760 Line Array (with KF730 under hang)

Tim, 12° plus the 4.5° of the flybar I believe. It just doesn't make sense from me to go from a bunch of narrow dispersion boxes at 3° angle, to relatively wide dispersion boxes at 12°+ and then back to 9°... the audience is getting closer, not further away, at the bottom of the array!

Hey Bennett,

I am a little confused here... how were you able to get 12 degrees between the KF760 and the KF730?
In all models that i have made in Resolution, you can only get (from the adapter bar) either a 1 or 3 degree splay between the KF760

As you can see there is only a difference of 2.5 or 4.5 degrees from the aiming of the two boxes...
Are you looking at the splay between the KF730's of 12 degrees?

 

[Brandon G Romanowski]

Re: EAW KF760 Line Array (with KF730 under hang)

Joe,
I like it, perhaps there could be one more dialog box in the auto design to help us concert audio folks. I'm glad you/EAW take the time to post on this forum. Thanks.

 

[Bennett Prescott]

Re: EAW KF760 Line Array (with KF730 under hang)

Who's Trollin'? I guess that was directed toward me?

Pat, Jeff was trolling. Not you.

 

[Bennett Prescott]

Re: EAW KF760 Line Array (with KF730 under hang)

Hey Guys,
I hear you talking about Resolution cutting your coverage, no criticism intended ~:-o~ but did anyone actually measure/verify the coverage was off?
Resolution uses the FChart modelling and takes into account the whole polar of the array, not individual isolated polars. (that Gunness guy again)~:-D~:grin:
With these type of arrays, where the array is pointing isn't necessarily where the main lobe of coverage is going (flame suit on):razz:

Hey Ferrit,

The SPL and coverage that Resolution predicts is dead on, I have verified it empirically. Obviously the box model is very good, it's what's used to generate the EAW Focusing and many other things. FChart is an incredible piece of software.

The problem is that the auto aiming algorithm seems to ignore all this good information. It tends to point the top box at the last seat. That might work with very, very short arrays but as you and I both know in the real world that's a non-starter. The auto aiming gives a convenient starting point, but then I tilt the array back up considerably and reassign a few boxes from near throw to far throw.

Resolution is also great because it now predicts my EQ, level, HPF, and delay. Now I can get the LF lobe to match the MF lobe to match the HF lobe in my predictions instead of just guessing what I need to do to get them all in the same area.

 

[Bennett Prescott]

Re: EAW KF760 Line Array (with KF730 under hang)

I am a little confused here... how were you able to get 12 degrees between the KF760 and the KF730?
In all models that i have made in Resolution, you can only get (from the adapter bar) either a 1 or 3 degree splay between the KF760
As you can see there is only a difference of 2.5 or 4.5 degrees from the aiming of the two boxes...
Are you looking at the splay between the KF730's of 12 degrees?

My bad, Joe! What I really meant was between the first two KF730s there was a splay of 12 degrees, I was also referring to the 730 being a 12° vertical box and the 760 being a 3° vertical box. The adapter bar angle is, I believe, fixed at 4.5°. Neither Resolution nor KF760 wizard will let me use it any other way, and in practice the bar can only be pinned in one way... in any case I've never wanted less than 4.5 degrees, although I have wanted more! What was really happening was going from 3° vertical boxes set with 3° angle between them, to a 12° vertical box with 4.5°, and then increasing that angle in the next box to 12°, and then reducing it again to 9°.

I will certainly mess around with that more next time I have this product out since that was the only thing I didn't like. Probably user error for believing the array designer algorithm anyway, but I was much more focused on the long throw (which came out beautifully) as the near throw could have been covered by the end of the main array coverage anyway.

 

[Bennett Prescott]

Re: EAW KF760 Line Array (with KF730 under hang)

There is always going to be an issue crossing over from one system to another. Using 730's under a hang of 760's completely throws the notion of divergence shading out the window(at least in the 760/730 crossover) and instead relies on intensity shading to even out the SPL. The crossover will always be audible in that situation, which might be why resolution basically isolates the two arrays from one another.

Brandon,

Since Divergence Shading (whose term is that?) is just a fancy way of saying "put some angle in between the boxes", I don't see how going to a different box throws it out the window. I am transitioning from the far/mid throw section of the array, where I need very tight angles, to the very near throw section where I almost need a trap box. KF730s at large inter-box angles work very well for this, this is something I have done on many occasions with many different boxes. The loudspeakers are not the problem, and using fancy terms I think clouds the real issue and makes line arrays seem more complicated than they really are.

I use Divergence Shading™, Intensity Shading™, Frequency Shading™, Delay Shading™, Phase Shading™, Height Shading™, and Fill Shading™ in my array designs. I have also, on occasion, used Turning Off That Box Completely Since It's Just Not Necessary™ shading.

 

[Bennett Prescott]

Re: EAW KF760 Line Array (with KF730 under hang)

This auto design should cover to 150'.
EDIT: I realize now you cannot see the distance markers ...... but it has the upper most 740 pointing only 91' out. The coverage angle of the box will end at 150' but who would actually set their array like this ?

Brandon,

I think the array wizard is telling you that you don't have enough boxes to cover from directly underneath the array to 150' out. Try changing the audience area so it starts at 20' and you will probably get better results. The software had to make a big compromise somewhere, and it chose to get more of the near seating in exclusion of the far seating.

 

[Phil Graham]

Re: EAW KF760 Line Array (with KF730 under hang)

This auto design should cover to 150'.
EDIT: I realize now you cannot see the distance markers ...... but it has the upper most 740 pointing only 91' out. The coverage angle of the box will end at 150' but who would actually set their array like this ?

Brandon,

You don't have enough vertical coverage angle from the boxes at hand, and you didn't move FOH to a realistic position. Resolution uses the FOH location as part of the auto-aiming criterion.

For Resolution to give better results from the Auto designer, I suggest putting FOH at 0.6-0.7 of the total coverage distance back in the house (regardless of where it really is), moving the coverage goal slider all the way to "consistent" and the SPL requirements to "spoken word." This will give you a better starting point.

 

[Bennett Prescott]

Re: EAW KF760 Line Array (with KF730 under hang)

Phil,

As far as I can tell the SPL requirements slider only affects how many boxes of the number you've indicated are available Resolution attempts to use. I always just tell it how many I'd like to use, which is almost always however many I could get my hands on "Rock & Roll" is probably the better setting.

 

[Brandon G Romanowski]

Re: EAW KF760 Line Array (with KF730 under hang)

Bennett,
Divergence Shading is an EAW term. As I understand it, the 761 and 760 are driven at the same level but use different pattern horns. So they spread the same acoustic energy differently. When you array them together the crossover is fairly seamless. When you use a 730 as an underhang you have one more complicated crossover to manage. In a large flat space putting that crossover somewhere convenient is going to be difficult or at least time consuming. Basically why put a difficult crossover in the middle of an array ? why not try to limit those as much as possible?

From the EAW 760 whitepaper :

"Because of the differences in output
levels, intensity shading also invariably creates
frequency response problems in the coverage seams
between vertically adjacent enclosures. These output
level differences also cause end of column effects that
seriously degrade the performance below the array in
the near field — right in the prime audience seating."

 

[Brandon G Romanowski]

Re: EAW KF760 Line Array (with KF730 under hang)

Phil,
I did not know that Resolution took FOH into its calculations, that is pretty cool. The screenshot was just a quick auto array I made to show the under coverage I always see when using the auto deign feature. I made a "real" one the day before, when I was actually flying the rig, and it had the same under coverage issue. I almost never use the auto-design anyhow or anything with "auto" in the title

 

[Bennett Prescott]

Re: EAW KF760 Line Array (with KF730 under hang)

Brandon,

In my experience the louder box (760) is "boss", and makes the physical crossover relatively easy to manage. The actual transition is only a few feet deep if done right. No, I wouldn't want it 100' out, but that's not what the under hang is for.

 

[Brandon G Romanowski]

Re: EAW KF760 Line Array (with KF730 under hang)

No argument here. I have never hung a 730 under a 760, but I do often use 730 as front fill for 760/61 hangs and they all play really well together.

 

[Phil Graham]

Re: EAW KF760 Line Array (with KF730 under hang)

Phil,
I did not know that Resolution took FOH into its calculations, that is pretty cool. The screenshot was just a quick auto array I made to show the under coverage I always see when using the auto deign feature. I made a "real" one the day before, when I was actually flying the rig, and it had the same under coverage issue. I almost never use the auto-design anyhow or anything with "auto" in the title

Brandon,

Glad to point out the FOH location aspect of resolution, and I agree that generally "auto-design" is a bad idea for most things in pro audio. I will say that I think the underlying mechanics of Resolution make it more likely to produce quality automatic designed arrays than most of the line array prediction software on the market.

 

[Jeff Babcock]

Re: EAW KF760 Line Array (with KF730 under hang)

You mean it's out of style to bash BFM?

I only do so in this case because I specifically brought up this issue to BFM (re how ridiculous the KF760 comparison was on his site) on several occasions. Despite my requests for him to update his site to remove the silly comparison, he has refused to do so. He is is well aware that his box doesn't compare, but taking pot-shots at reputable manufacturers to make them look like greedy snake oil salesmen is his usual modus operandi.


Sorry for the thread distraction Bennett. I'll stop being a troll now.

 

[Jeff Babcock]

Re: EAW KF760 Line Array (with KF730 under hang)

For Resolution to give better results from the Auto designer, I suggest putting FOH at 0.6-0.7 of the total coverage distance back in the house (regardless of where it really is), moving the coverage goal slider all the way to "consistent" and the SPL requirements to "spoken word." This will give you a better starting point.

Thanks Phil, those are helpful tips.

 

[Bennett Prescott]

Re: EAW KF760 Line Array (with KF730 under hang)

Doesn't bother me none, Jeff. I think I've made it clear that I find Bill's comparisons and hand drawn response graphs to be ridiculous.