Outdoor System under powered ?

[Shane Presley]

I played with my band on an SL250 outdoor show last night at a fall fair event as an opening act. There was about 2-4K in attendance.
The Main act was an up and coming country headliner ( Dean Broady)

Of course I was curious as to what my competitior had brought out, since I quoted this gig, and lost it.
Any opinions here about an ITECH4K, and ITECH 6K running 8 Kf730 boxes, and a single ITECH 8K run 4 x sb1000's?
(I watched the pretty red clips lights during the kickdrum soundcheck of the headliner...)

Cause that's what was happening... Everything else in their rig was adequate ( except for the lack of a/c stage drops) and poor to non-existant packaging...
an example - Loose Leprechon dimmers sitting on top of other racks under the stage...wtf...

 

[Ivan Beaver]

Re: Outdoor System under powered ?

I played with my band on an SL250 outdoor show last night at a fall fair event as an opening act. There was about 2-4K in attendance.
The Main act was an up and coming country headliner ( Dean Broady)

Of course I was curious as to what my competitior had brought out, since I quoted this gig, and lost it.
Any opinions here about an ITECH4K, and ITECH 6K running 8 Kf730 boxes, and a single ITECH 8K run 4 x sb1000's?
(I watched the pretty red clips lights during the kickdrum soundcheck of the headliner...)

Cause that's what was happening... Everything else in their rig was adequate ( except for the lack of a/c stage drops) and poor to non-existant packaging...
an example - Loose Leprechon dimmers sitting on top of other racks under the stage...wtf...

Since you were there, what did you think about the overall sound? Forget looking at the lights.

You can get all kinds of "opinions", but the end is was the quality of the production (as far as the audience and buyer are concerned) worth what was paid?

You could get all kinds of things from-not enough bass cabinets-to more amps etc etc. But how was it setup/aligned and did it do the job asked of it?

 

[Rob Timmerman]

Re: Outdoor System under powered ?

Any opinions here about an ITECH4K, and ITECH 6K running 8 Kf730 boxes, and a single ITECH 8K run 4 x sb1000's?
(I watched the pretty red clips lights during the kickdrum soundcheck of the headliner...)

Cause that's what was happening... Everything else in their rig was adequate ( except for the lack of a/c stage drops) and poor to non-existant packaging...
an example - Loose Leprechon dimmers sitting on top of other racks under the stage...wtf...

Those amplifier choices are pretty much dead on the boxes' RMS power ratings on the tops and a touch over on the subs.

And that "lack of packaging" may be due to a more modular approach - it's possible this other provider does primarily smaller gigs that don't require a full dimmer rack.

 

[Shane Presley]

Re: Outdoor System under powered ?

It was pretty full sounding Ivan. I guess I was more tweaked that the promoter wasn't comparing apples to apples. I could bring half the amplification and quoted a b dimmer kit and maybe come in closer to win the bid. As for the smaller provider theory this isn't the case. This provider owns the sl250 so you don't get there (or shouldn't) sending out hand bombed dimmers. Especially pin patch vx leprechons. Oh well more info for next years quote. One thing I noticed is they were processing with the itechs. They don't have that down either. Sounded muddy.

 

[Ivan Beaver]

Re: Outdoor System under powered ?

It was pretty full sounding Ivan. I guess I was more tweaked that the promoter wasn't comparing apples to apples. I could bring half the amplification and quoted a b dimmer kit and maybe come in closer to win the bid. As for the smaller provider theory this isn't the case. This provider owns the sl250 so you don't get there (or shouldn't) sending out hand bombed dimmers. Especially pin patch vx leprechons. Oh well more info for next years quote. One thing I noticed is they were processing with the itechs. They don't have that down either. Sounded muddy.

Note-the following is not trying to be ugly, but just to point out some of the sad truths.

In most cases (except for the tech geek promoters), the promoter could care less about what dimmers were used or how they were used-they look at the overall result of the lighting look on the stage.

Same thing for the PA, it doesn't matter to them how or where the processing is done, they are only concerned with is the band happy (enough) and did they get a showing at the gate for what it cost they in production costs.

They way you stand out is not getting picky on gear, but rather on what your company can do better or make life easier for the promoter. And why the extra money is worth spending with you.

You stated that you could have done the gig for less if you had brought out different gear. Then is it possible that you overestimated what was required for this particular gig?

Maybe you should have given the promoter 2 bids. One for a basic system and then one with more whistles and bells and greater output. Let him choose.

Then if he chooses a competitor who was priced around your cheap system, you can go back to him and explain how your cheap system would have been a better choice.

Yes this kind of stuff is hard-I have had more than my share of gigs lost because they went with a lessor system, when I could have done it cheaper if I had known the actual requirements of the gig. The lighting of the National Christmas tree back in the late 80's is one that really sticks in my mind and ticks me off everytime I think about it.

 

[Ron Kimball]

Re: Outdoor System under powered ?

Fairs have lots of other stuff going on so often don't really need or want full on concert level sound. OTOH 2 watts of sub power per listener (at 4k listeners) for an outdoors main stage is a bit shy for sure. If it was only 2k listeners it would have been decent. Also them 8000's put out 12KW burst if loaded at two ohms like that so can be a bit punchier than one might think.

I played a secondary fair stage yesterday that had two pair of TS Floodlights per side which was a bit silly overkill-wise for only 3-500. I provided that same stage a couple months ago with just a pair of 127 db powered tops over a couple folded horn subs with 840 watts to each and it was plenty although the tops were limiting - I was told the previous year's provider was too loud so tried not to make the same mistake as him. While it is nice to have more rig than you need you can't really expect the client to be willing to pay extra for it, eh?

 

[frank kayser]

Re: Outdoor System under powered ?

Note-the following is not trying to be ugly, but just to point out some of the sad truths.

In most cases (except for the tech geek promoters), the promoter could care less about what dimmers were used or how they were used-they look at the overall result of the lighting look on the stage.

Same thing for the PA, it doesn't matter to them how or where the processing is done, they are only concerned with is the band happy (enough) and did they get a showing at the gate for what it cost they in production costs.

They way you stand out is not getting picky on gear, but rather on what your company can do better or make life easier for the promoter. And why the extra money is worth spending with you.

You stated that you could have done the gig for less if you had brought out different gear. Then is it possible that you overestimated what was required for this particular gig?

Maybe you should have given the promoter 2 bids. One for a basic system and then one with more whistles and bells and greater output. Let him choose.

Then if he chooses a competitor who was priced around your cheap system, you can go back to him and explain how your cheap system would have been a better choice.

Yes this kind of stuff is hard-I have had more than my share of gigs lost because they went with a lessor system, when I could have done it cheaper if I had known the actual requirements of the gig. The lighting of the National Christmas tree back in the late 80's is one that really sticks in my mind and ticks me off everytime I think about it.

+1
Nice job, Ivan. Hit the nail squarely. Ugly truths explained very tactfully. Your idea of low and high estimates is something I'll steal, if you don't mind - especially when the specs for the gig are not particularly clear.
(edit - bolded original text)

 

[Brandon G Romanowski]

Re: Outdoor System under powered ?

That two bid idea doesn't typically work out. They will always take the lower bid and expect the higher bid service. Why would you quote them something that wasn't enough or something that is too much?

 

[Ron Kimball]

Re: Outdoor System under powered ?

That two bid idea doesn't typically work out. They will always take the lower bid and expect the higher bid service. Why would you quote them something that wasn't enough or something that is too much?

Yah, unfortunately it takes a lot of experience to know what to quote - what the client says they want is usually not what they actually want (or need) - especially if there are no riders to satisfy. And asking questions they can't answer makes it look like you are the incompetent one, not them :roll: .

 

[kristianjohnsen]

Re: Outdoor System under powered ?

That two bid idea doesn't typically work out. They will always take the lower bid and expect the higher bid service. Why would you quote them something that wasn't enough or something that is too much?

This is all part of the "game of bidding": The other party was more skilled at identifying what product the client was likely to purchase and were wise enough to offer them that - even if it wasn't the "nicest" package they were offered overall.
Sometimes I wish I could just focus on the technical aspects of my job and let someone else deal with the numbers.

Who cares if the Toyota Diesel pickup is more practical, more reliable, more economical, greener and better looking when GM were clever enough to figure out that the customers just wanted "cool" and would be buying the gas guzzling and awful H2 Hummer?
SADLY, who makes money is all about who can identify what you need to offer in order for the customers to buy SOMETHING...

 

[Ivan Beaver]

Re: Outdoor System under powered ?

That two bid idea doesn't typically work out. They will always take the lower bid and expect the higher bid service. Why would you quote them something that wasn't enough or something that is too much?

You can always give them the higher bid service, just not the gear.

If you quote a 24 can light show 2 monitor mixes and a 24 channel FOH,and they expect you to show up with 48 cans, 12 monitor mixes and a 48 channel FOH, then you simply point out to them that if they wanted that level of service they should have signed the higher quote.

When I travel and book a mid size car, I don't show up at the rental counter and expect them to give me the luxury model for the same money. Although it has happened because that is all they had. Same thing with a rental system, if your smaller console if booked (and that is all they paid for), then showing up with a larger model is not a problem-of course untill the next time they "expect" you to bring out the larger console-but that is THEIR problem-not yours.

Your job is to provide what is in the CONTRACT-not what the the promoter "thinks" you will bring-"just because".

The other part of the equation is figuring out what is really needed/expected. Yes your gear may be better-but you also need to provide it at a price that the buyer is willing to pay. If all you have is a 48 channel console and what they need is a 24 or 32, then you either need to drop your rate-or buy more gear to meet specific sizes-or let somebody else do the gig.

Yeah it is hard to have these situations-but the thing to take away from it is a learning moment.

And sometimes a different provider is choosen for reasons that just don't make sense-such as maybe the other guy had better "smoke" than you did.

I actually lost a number of gigs back in the 80's when I was providing better gear-for the same price-and better service (or so I thought), until I was informed by my competion that part of the reasons they got the gig and I didn't, was that they would go party with the band after the gig. I had to get back home and get some sleep, because I had another gig the next day.

But in those cases the customer was more "comfortable" with my competition than with me. Whatever. You never know what makes different people "tick".

 

[Brad Weber]

Re: Outdoor System under powered ?

Fairs have lots of other stuff going on so often don't really need or want full on concert level sound. OTOH 2 watts of sub power per listener (at 4k listeners) for an outdoors main stage is a bit shy for sure. If it was only 2k listeners it would have been decent.

Wouldn't the sensitivity of the speakers, the size of the audience area, the genre of music, etc. matter? It's been addressed many times already but looking at power per person is not a good approach.

 

[Phil Graham]

Re: Outdoor System under powered ?

That two bid idea doesn't typically work out. They will always take the lower bid and expect the higher bid service. Why would you quote them something that wasn't enough or something that is too much?

Brandon,

Gotta side heavily with Ivan here. Providing tiered bidding calibrates their expectations of what you will show up with. When it is less than they thought, you have the pre-defined bids to refer back to. I always provide tiered options to my system tuning clients.

It is realistic to expect that many clients will choose the lowest bid. The remainder of the bid structure is about client training, providing the client a choice, and to provide defined upsell points, should they change their mind. If their decision to take the lowest bid package is causing the company a financial problem, then you should rethink your low bid point, not the tiered quote.

Clients choosing the lowest bid point on a tiered structure should not be viewed as a failure. An educated client who understands that I can provide a level of service that extends to more than 2x the cost of the basic service is never a bad thing. Certainly some clients do not care, some consider this analytically, and some respond emotionally. I cannot calibrate their response, but I can shape what I feed them to make the decision.

P.S. For clients I already know, I will lead with my lowest tier, as this reinforces rapport. For an unknown client I will lead with my highest tier, as this suggests the lower tiers are bargains.

 

[Brandon G Romanowski]

Re: Outdoor System under powered ?

If you show up to the gun fight with a slingshot it wont matter how much you bid the gig for. You guys all make strong points. I'm just throwing my 2 cents in the mix.

 

[Brian jojade]

Re: Outdoor System under powered ?

Blind quoting a show that has no specific rider requirements is more of an art than providing for the actual event. Knowing what makes the client tick is what matters. Some clients will book cheaper no matter what. We've got a local organizer that books that way, regardless of event size. Doesn't matter if you screw things up and get complaints as long as you have the lower price come bid time. They booked one outdoor event with an audience of about 2K and the sound guy brought EAW KF 730 Line array boxes. TWO of them. Yeah, one box per side to cover an entire city block. That event didn't go off too well.

Whenever I book a job, I find out as much as I can, using general terms. Get the client to describe their needs to you before you start talking. Ask them what kind of events they have been to, and what they liked about it. You would be surprised how little some promoters know about actual gear and quality and reliability of said gear. Find out what they are expecting to spend. Try and package your entry level system close to that price, or just above. Then, put together a package that you would recommend, and write up why it would be better. The better your essay as to why to choose the higher package, the better chance you will have of selling it.

 

[Phil Graham]

Re: Outdoor System under powered ?

If you show up to the gun fight with a slingshot it wont matter how much you bid the gig for. You guys all make strong points. I'm just throwing my 2 cents in the mix.

Brandon,

You are of course correct in this, but I think that is thinking more like a technician than a business owner. Bidding gigs where you are guaranteed to be over your head and, by extension, do a poor job is not prudent. Being able to do the gig, both in regards to equipment and financially, should be the baseline.

The implicit flip side is that you have figured out some way to tier your services. That is not always an easy thing to do. It is somewhat easier for "knowledge work" like system tuning.

-Phil

 

[Ron Kimball]

Re: Outdoor System under powered ?

Wouldn't the sensitivity of the speakers,

They were SB1000's which are fairly efficient (see OP).

the size of the audience area,

One can assume it was a typical fair setup - no?

the genre of music,

Not-so-much at a fair

It's been addressed many times already but looking at power per person is not a good approach.

If you're doing a rough estimate why not? If you're going to quote a big rig to not take a chance on coming up a bit short someone else is gonna get the gig. Is anybody gonna notice you'r up against the limiters and a couple db shy of where you'd like to be? Nobody that matters ...

 

[Evan Kirkendall]

Re: Outdoor System under powered ?

I wouldn't call SB1000's efficient subs by any means.

And I too don't dig the whole "watts per person" thing. I spec systems based on what I know the system will do. If I'm spec'ing a PA for 4,000 people, it doesn't matter if it's 10,000 watts or 100,000 watts. As long as it gets the job done, I'm happy. And really, how do you figure out how many "watts per person" is enough?


Evan

 

[Kemper Watson]

Re: Outdoor System under powered ?

The watts per person formula has been around for quite a while. From the days when more watts meant (supposedly) a louder PA.

 

[Ivan Beaver]

Re: Outdoor System under powered ?

The watts per person formula has been around for quite a while. From the days when more watts meant (supposedly) a louder PA.

But the problem with the "formula" is that nobody can agree on what it is supposed to be. I have typically seen a range from 1 watt to 10 watts/ person.

That is quite a range-like Evan says the difference between a 10Kw and a 100Kw PA. When you count amps/speakers/cables/distro/trucks etc. it can be quite a difference.

And I would argue that the difference betwen those 2 numbers could cover a wide range of audience sizes and a wide range of musical styles.

Of course it also has to be a "sliding scale", because if there were such a number and it would work for a audience of 200, it would probably have to be different for an audience of 10,000. And would that number be for inside or outside? Especially on subs, there is a huge difference in the number/power for the subs.

I would argue that generally (boy that can get you into trouble) you need around 4 times the subs outside as you do inside for the same size crowd- to get the same effect-or even close. So that changes the "number" by a factor of 4-among all the other variables.

So yeah, you could use "that" formula-but let's see what number the various people around here would like to assign as a magic number.

I'll start. I like variables-so I will stick with "it depends". Now lets start to fill in the blanks to come up with a number. OH-that would require thought to the process. But why make it hard-let's just come up with a one size fits all number.

Just bustin your chops.