Virtual SMAART training: Tell the crossover frequency and type

Re: Virtual SMAART training: Tell the crossover frequency and type

How does one take the speaker measured in the best environment and translate that to the speaker measured in the field....
Every field measurement is going to be different. Different idstances-different reflections-different reverb/diffusion in the room and so forth.

You also have to look at how the loudspeaker "interfaces" with the room-ie pattern control and how low the control extends.

There are MANY variables. The "trick" is to attempt to figure out what is real and what is not (reflections etc) in the measurement. When in doubt-move the mic 5 or 10' and see what changes.
 
Re: Virtual SMAART training: Tell the crossover frequency and type

The "trick" is to attempt to figure out what is real and what is not (reflections etc) in the measurement. When in doubt-move the mic 5 or 10' and see what changes.

Ivan, Looks like you could use some live spatial averaging...
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.ne...0146_124161674262266_1239290_1324507966_n.jpg

The 4 individual traces varied widely due to the room's influence. The live average of the 4 (hidden) transfer functions accents the common features of the response. This makes it easier to make EQ decisions. The picture would be more illustrative if I had shown the individual TFs. Even the ground bounce is noticeably missing from the average. The mic stand heights varied.
 
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Re: Virtual SMAART training: Tell the crossover frequency and type

But that also requires an expert user, since you must know what the average is telling you and what it isn't. The average weights cancellations far more heavily than boosts. Is that meaningful? Usually not.

Smoothing works the way you describe. Spatial averaging not so much. The test,...measure a single speaker up close maybe within 10ft or so if the speaker isn't too large. Do this in a reasonably sized room, doesn't have to be a hall, but a conference room is probably going to be a little too small to get the bigger picture. It's OK if the room is reverberant. That will help the demonstration even more. Now capture 4-6 traces around the room within the coverage pattern of the speaker. Average those together. Compare the average to the nearfield you already captured. What you will find is much of the radical combing from one seat to the next is averaged out and the trace is nearly the same as the nearfield. The nearfield response is indicative of what is equalizable. The averaged response will have a little less up top and a little more down low. The former is caused by air absorbtion (mostly), and the latter is caused by room gain. If you started with a perfect speaker, you would find with the live average, there isn't much for you to do. If you then add that speaker to another one just like it in a 2 wide array, you will find about 6dB more LF which you will have a much clearer picture of with the live average and can then EQ back to flat (in the nearfield, or actually little pink out in the room). Line arrays work on the idea of using interference (combing) to reduce level as you get closer to the array. This usually means that every seat has a little different response. Averaging several captured traces helps a lot to see the "nearfield" response, which in the case of a line array, doesn't exist. Live averaging just speeds it up a bunch.

As Ivan often points out, if you don't like the response in one position, move a few feet away. It changes. The trace is highly influenced by the reflections. The spatial averaging helps ignore the reflections. The argument can be made all day to fix the acoustics for a better behaving room, but that's not the point here. We do want to see the single point responses so we know what's going on, but we don't want to base EQ decisions on those single locations.

As for smoothing. It's OK for trends, but I tend to stay at none or 48th Oct smoothing in magnitude and use whatever it take for Phase. It's good to take the smoothing off the phase and see how messed up it can be but for making timing decisions the trends are important. Having the live IR up and running is a huge gift. It's like cheating.....

Yes, it's very meaningful for the purpose I described above. It can be considered a lie if you misuse it. Even when the correct solution (acoustic treatment) is applied, this is often still a great tool. I personally don't get to make changes to the room and often I don't get to pick where the PA lives. Live spatial averaging has brought my tweaking to 90-95% and correlates to my hearing very well. Even after each individual system is finished, I use it when the entire PA is on with mics around the room but not in symmetrical positions. It has correlated well to where I end up when walking the room with a tablet and making final tweaks here and there. I'm still new to this last part. Only been doing that for about a year.
 
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Re: Virtual SMAART training: Tell the crossover frequency and type

But that also requires an expert user, since you must know what the average is telling you and what it isn't. The average weights cancellations far more heavily than boosts. Is that meaningful? Usually not.

Isn't Coherence weighted averaging invented to counter act that? aka at most reflections there will be a "lower" coherence hence those points not counting as much in the average.

To Harry: in Smaart v7, is the average a straight mathematical average or are there more to it?
 
Re: Virtual SMAART training: Tell the crossover frequency and type

Isn't Coherence weighted averaging invented to counter act that? aka at most reflections there will be a "lower" coherence hence those points not counting as much in the average.

Sure, that helps keep obvious and large hits from impacting your average, but things are not always so large or obvious. Some reflections can have great coherence, and some big dips can have good enough coherence that they may not be well excluded.
 
Re: Virtual SMAART training: Explanation Slide 3

...For the sake of the thread, I remain intentionally ignorant of any details of the electrical XO filters in this powered loudspeaker. This will limit what can be said, but it is reflective of what can be determined in situ.

More later on in the week...

Hopefully provide some follow-up posts to these three by the end of the week. Thanks for your patience.
 
Re: Virtual SMAART training: Tell the crossover frequency and type

To Harry: in Smaart v7, is the average a straight mathematical average or are there more to it?

An average of multiple spectrum measurements can be averaged in either dB or power. The math is the same regardless of what form is averaged. However the power average will result in more weight being given to the louder signal(s).

Avg Compare.png
 
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Re: Virtual SMAART training: HPR122I

Back when this thread really got going I decided that I wanted to borrow an HPR box at some point to measure. I was finally able to put my hands on one this past week. Unfortunately it was the 12" model which is obviously a little different on account of the woofer size but also because the HPR122I uses a round waveguide horn thing as compared to the rectangular horn in the HPR152I that Phil started this thread with. Nevertheless, I took some measurements and have decided to share them. As these were done in [ghetto] ground plane fashion at a very close distance the coherence was pretty much "at the top" over the entire useful range of the box although in one measure I did find some drops in the coherence right at the big notch at the crossover point. First I started off almost on axis with the horn.
stock hpr up 5.png
Then I went down to a lower angle that might better reflect where a listener would be when the speaker is on a stick. At around 15-20 degrees down I got a curve that I think started to resemble what Phil posted. stock hpr down 15.png
But, figuring that was unrealistically steep I moved up to around 5-10 degrees down from on axis. stock hpr down 5.png
Then, based on my curiosity about the polarity of the tweeter I swapped it and measured in the same position and angle. nonstock hpr down 5.png
To my amazement, the phase was remarkably flat. Here's a shot where I reversed the polarity of my reference so the phase is right up the middle around zero. nonstock hpr down 5-2.png I'm not certain if my test setup carries correct polarity or not but it is generally a little easier to see the phase when it doesn't wrap.

One of the take aways that I was hoping Phil would comment on is that 2khz is really too high to crossover a 15" cone. (And a 12" or 10" as well for that matter). There are a few reasons as to why but the one that stands out from these measurements is the significant lobing that occurs around crossover throughout the supposedly useable vertical range. Because there is a difference in the arrival times of the woofer and tweeter for each different angle that we might be listening at, there is a different combined response. If the crossover point were much lower we would typically see much smaller changes in response. The Meyer CQ boxes or the Geddes Summa are examples of designs with a much lower crossover point. So, why are these [much cheaper] QSC speakers designed such as they are?
 
Re: Virtual SMAART training: HPR122I

The Meyer CQ boxes or the Geddes Summa are examples of designs with a much lower crossover point. So, why are these [much cheaper] QSC speakers designed such as they are?

As a guess, in order to get Hf drivers that you can crossover lower, they cost a good bit more. It is easy to get a HF to crossover over lower (and still get loud), but you can't get a decent HF response. It is a trade off. Of course if you are willing to pay more for a driver-you can start to get the "best of both". But the term "cheap" just went out the window.

So my guess is that QSC said "we can sell a lot more of these at this price point" and the average user of a loudspeaker in that price point would not care.

There IS a reason better loudspeakers cost more.
 
Re: Virtual SMAART training: HPR122I

As a guess, in order to get Hf drivers that you can crossover lower, they cost a good bit more. It is easy to get a HF to crossover over lower (and still get loud), but you can't get a decent HF response. It is a trade off. Of course if you are willing to pay more for a driver-you can start to get the "best of both". But the term "cheap" just went out the window.

So my guess is that QSC said "we can sell a lot more of these at this price point" and the average user of a loudspeaker in that price point would not care.

There IS a reason better loudspeakers cost more.

In support of this, and to possibly answer Drew's question, note that the HPR122i has a 25w Celestion HF driver. Given how loud these boxes can get (not saying they sound spectacular) I'm guessing the high crossover point was chosen to protect the HF driver.

I was surprised to find this driver in there when I opened the box because it's a very similar one to that of the Yorkville NX55p which has a 50w Celestion. Surprising because the NX55p doesn't get nearly as loud as the HPR122, though this could be related to any other number of things.