First post for me

Re: First post for me

Hey Timo,
your english is fine,and theres always spell check :)
Good luck on the math, I started to "brush-up" about 4 years ago, I found the MIT connexions a good source. After that you'll want Signals and Systems.............

Great write up BTW....
cheers,
ferrit

ooops forgot link http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/mathematics/
 
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Re: First post for me

Hi Timo,

It looks like you are working on some really fun stuff! I really wish I had the time to work on stuff like this. It would be so much more fun than everything else I have to work on!

The MediaMatrix NION nE can support hundreds of second order All Pass filters. To test that, I just tried to do about 400 second order all pass filters in a NION and with a little adjustment to the number of samples that are processed per vector, it worked just fine and there is still more DSP available to add more filters or do some other DSP processing. Obviously, FIR filters are also available in the form of raw taps so you can use however many taps you need to get the response you are looking for. Also, one thing that NION supports that no other DSP platform supports is Python scripting. You can make the NION do pretty much anything if your Python abilities are good enough. I think once you are familiar with the abilities of the NION, you will not be interested in any other DSP.

Again, I'm not trying to sell you the NION, you already said you are going to demo them all when it is time to buy (which I think is a FANTASTIC idea!!!). I just wanted you to be aware of some of the more advanced tools that the MediaMatrix platform can offer you.
 
Re: First post for me

Hey Timo,
Awesome blog very good work, and thanks for sharing! I would love too see some more work on measuring the transient response (or lack of) of for different sub woofer configurations especially cardiod configurations, as it seems the be off great debate. Is it possible to measure and quantify how much smear the "transient response" can take before we perceive it as bad.Im thinking about what Dave Rat talks about in his videos. And also more analysis of what happens when xxxxxxx amount of people are put in front of center stacked sub configuration arc'ed or delayed. Is there any relationships between what will go though people, and what will "reflect" back directly on to the stage, where does the energy go? Are there a golden ratio for the min distance to the audience?
mvh
Rasmus
 
Re: First post for me

By Transient response you mean how does the Impulse response looks like before and after alignment ? That was 1 of the things i was wondering about and i was planning on saving those measurements before and after aligning the system i was tuning in the post . Thing is after 3 days of looking at a screen i forgot to save the pre/post alignment impulse response . So this is something for the follow-up ...........
 
Re: First post for me

Hey Timo,
Got you PM. What I mean is what are the "relationship" between the "sonic impact" that we perceive as a lack of "transient response" in cardiod subwoofer configurations compared to a conventional stack of sub woofers. And how does it show up in the different measurements. Im sure its a myriad of things and yes I'm out of line trying to measure a subjective listing experience, but I think most will agree that some/most cardio subwoofer arrays does sound different (and most seem to think worst) than a "normal" stack of sub woofers. And as we offend defend the design by promoting the benefits of reduced level at the back etc, the disadvantages (if any?) are offend "overlooked". So I guess my question is what designs works and sounds the best, and are we able to see why in the measurements?
The other question was; does any one have measurement data from touring with center stacked arced (or dly arced) arrays of what happens when people join the equation. Two questions (if there are any differences): What happens on stage? What happens at FOH (in the audience), and are there any relationships between a minimum distance to stage vs distance to audience for it to work (at x frequency) etc.
All this came up because i got a lot of people call and say that center stacked cardio subwoofer arrays don't work, and I have always promoted them to a good extend. What happens is that either they sounds bad (what ever that means right?) or when people come in all the sub bounces back on stage creating horrible feedback etc. So people change there riders to L/R sub only! and I think thats a sad evolution... That said the few times i have deployed center stacked og any cardio sub design i have been pleased with both sound quality and rejections, and have not the problems. But not being able to do a direct A/B comparison it will be hard to judge witch is better.
 
Re: First post for me

So the only sub array that doesn't change in frequency response is a end fired line and has very good rear rejection if applied correctly (means measure it and do not think that only putting in the physical distance between loudspeakers in to the processor is enough so allways verify) .The problem with putting a endfired line in to action as a centre sub array is the space needed to build it (not enough room for it) .If you build a gradient sub array (or reversed end fired as i call it) so a double line of subs with the line in the back delayed to the front line and polarity reversed there will be a problem aligning it to your main system because in the upper x-over point the back sub line will not be in phase with your mains compared to the front line of subs .Also it sounds different from a stacked sub system and a end fired because it's out of phase in the upper region of the working area of subs .The csa array (stack of 3 with the middle sub facing to the back) also will sound a little different . The back facing sub will cancel @ the back but again has a differnt phase response @ the front comparred to the front facing subs .I have build all arrays described here above also in lines of 6 to 12 subs per line and if correctly applied they all work pretty wel .If you build them in a centre sub config. make sure it's a cardioid array otherwise you might get in to problems with the lead (talent) singer and try to get the array as far away from the stage as possible .If you have a end fired line below the stage in the centre remember that the level @ the back of the array doesn't get louder than 1 single sub . So you'll have addition in front of the array by about 14 to 15 db but the level in the back stays the same like if there was only 1 sub playing . So what will happen if you start of with a 110db level on each sub . you still have a 110 db of sub level under the stage and that might be a problem regarding feedback and the perception by the people on stage . They do not hear the mains only a lot of subs witch might be directly under them .The same thing happens with a sub line . You get directional controll but if you keep it as a single line you'll also have a lot of sub on stage . Then if you align this sub line with your mains you have to aply delay to it to get in "phase" at least in the FOH possition and by doing so the sub is also late on stage and can cause serious problems for the drummer or bass player .I do not have measurement data from live shows stored on my SIM or sat/smaart sorry..... can't help you there
 
Re: First post for me

Timo,

I have a few thoughts on the rest of your and Rasmus' questions but posting is being weird and I have a few other things to get done before I can commit to a long response.

I just wanted to say that end-fire doesn't change its response... on axis. Off axis, even 30 degrees off axis, it changes its response a lot! I like end fire for the amount of "impact" it maintains, but cardioid is much more consistent and high frequency combing is not as bad as simulations show largely due to simulations ignorance of box size, acoustical impedance, and room reflections. I agree Cardioid doesn't sound as punchy but for a lot of things that doesn't matter (corporate, dubstep, reggae...) and consistency of pattern and small deployment size is a much bigger deal.
 
Re: First post for me

I will take a look at the matrix units and demo them when the time comes .... depends on the crisis thing going all over europe . I do not know what file to download to get to know the software a bit . Do you have a link for that ? Thanx
Hi Timo, Anyone can download the current version of our NWare software here: http://mm.peavey.com/assets/software/NWare_1-6-3_709.msiIf you would like some online self-paced education, have a look here: http://mmtraining.peavey.com/ Our online training modules can count towards Continuing Education Units for CTS certifications. Please let me know if you have any other questions, concerns, or issues. Thanks! Josh
 
Re: First post for me

@ josh thanxs for the link . There's a lot of downloads available so did not know witch one to take .@ bennet posting seems to work better now only replying with quote still takes time . I know about the of axis being different and i agree about the "deployment" size of a end fired not being handy for centre stage sub arrays . I would usaly go for a Full line of subs as wide as the venue and if possible a double line so gradient style and live with the alignment problem
 
Re: First post for me

What I mean is what are the "relationship" between the "sonic impact" that we perceive as a lack of "transient response" in cardiod subwoofer configurations compared to a conventional stack of sub woofers. And how does it show up in the different measurements. Im sure its a myriad of things and yes I'm out of line trying to measure a subjective listing experience, but I think most will agree that some/most cardio subwoofer arrays does sound different (and most seem to think worst) than a "normal" stack of sub woofers. And as we offend defend the design by promoting the benefits of reduced level at the back etc, the disadvantages (if any?) are offend "overlooked". So I guess my question is what designs works and sounds the best, and are we able to see why in the measurements?

All right, it's been a long weekend but as promised here are some subwoofer ruminations.

When delaying and polarity inverting the rear (away from audience) subwoofer to create a cardioid array, the cancellation at the rear is excellent and wide-band because it is accomplished with a polarity inversion. The summation to the front, however, is not perfect because it is accomplished with phase... in a well designed array the frequency of interest will be 360 degrees out of phase out front when coming from the rear subwoofer. With steady state signals this doesn't matter, there is no difference between 360° and 0° as far as they are concerned. However, with dynamic signals (music) the envelope of the waveform is altered, causing this time smearing you can hear. Also, since the addition out front is phase based as you go higher in frequency it slips out of phase and then back in again causing a comb filter like response, this transition is audible just like using a sharper crossover filter would be.

In reality, it is possible to design cardioid subwoofer arrays that sound and perform very well, much better than predictions might show and better than some others might sound. I like to use a very close driver spacing, this keeps the frequency that the array begins combing at out front high and therefore almost entirely out of the subwoofer pass band. I find this still allows for 15+dB of rejection at the rear, how much depends more on the room really. I then gain match and delay at the rear, I find there is usually about a 3dB level difference from the front to the rear, I therefore prefer to use one rear facing sub for two front facing. This means that, with gain matched for "perfect" rejection at the rear, out front the rear subwoofer will be at least 3dB down and often closer to 6dB. It provides SPL contribution still, but as it isn't level matched the time smearing and comb filtering is nowhere near as sharp or significant as it may appear in simulation.

A few years ago, at the second LAB Expo in Massachusetts, a few of us took the time to do some outdoor comparisons of various subwoofer array designs. What we found was that, with three subwoofers, measured a meaningful distance away (let's say 10m or about 30', I forget exactly how far), there was no significant gain difference out front between a three high bottom reversed cardioid array and a three deep very close spacing end fire array. Both were about 3dB less loud than a three high array of all subs facing forward. The biggest difference was at the rear, where the end fire array showed its frequency dependent cancellation. The deepest null was about equivalent to the cardioid array's rear rejection, but the cardioid array did it over its entire usable bandwidth. There was not a significant difference in listening between the two types of directional arrays, with a full range speaker on top. In my experience with many many shows tried both ways there is a small difference, but not anything like people seem to make out or like much more common effects like misaligned tops and subs or crossover phase distortion.

As for large arrays in front of stages, my thoughts are simple. It is a matter of compromises, a sub array as wide as the room, or perhaps 50% wider than the audience outdoors at least, would be ideal. Rarely are we afforded that sort of opportunity. So we must make do with too few subwoofers, regardless of output... or perhaps because of.

The compromise is two fold, evenness of subwoofer coverage, and maintenance of timing information. The former asks for a center cluster, the latter for left/right. However, it is more complicated than that, as with a "smooth coverage" center cluster where it crosses over with the mains now you have three sub arrays, two of them unintentional, ruining both time arrival and coverage. I find with very wide center clusters the time arrival is less of an issue, but as I said we don't have that luxury. So let's go with left/right stacks anyway and make them directional, now we have less energy on stage, we maintain our time coherence, and coverage evenness is somewhere between standard left/right and center cluster because off axis seats mostly see energy from one stack. Additionally, transition from sub array to mains array is less evident since they have the same general lobing. This has become my preferred general method, with at least three deep end fire, it works pretty well plus end fire array lets you get extremely high acoustic output density.
 
Re: First post for me

Hey Timo,
Got you PM. What I mean is what are the "relationship" between the "sonic impact" that we perceive as a lack of "transient response" in cardiod subwoofer configurations compared to a conventional stack of sub woofers. And how does it show up in the different measurements. Im sure its a myriad of things and yes I'm out of line trying to measure a subjective listing experience, but I think most will agree that some/most cardio subwoofer arrays does sound different (and most seem to think worst) than a "normal" stack of sub woofers. And as we offend defend the design by promoting the benefits of reduced level at the back etc, the disadvantages (if any?) are offend "overlooked". So I guess my question is what designs works and sounds the best, and are we able to see why in the measurements?
The other question was; does any one have measurement data from touring with center stacked arced (or dly arced) arrays of what happens when people join the equation. Two questions (if there are any differences): What happens on stage? What happens at FOH (in the audience), and are there any relationships between a minimum distance to stage vs distance to audience for it to work (at x frequency) etc.
All this came up because i got a lot of people call and say that center stacked cardio subwoofer arrays don't work, and I have always promoted them to a good extend. What happens is that either they sounds bad (what ever that means right?) or when people come in all the sub bounces back on stage creating horrible feedback etc. So people change there riders to L/R sub only! and I think thats a sad evolution... That said the few times i have deployed center stacked og any cardio sub design i have been pleased with both sound quality and rejections, and have not the problems. But not being able to do a direct A/B comparison it will be hard to judge witch is better.

I also wonder how one could measure "impact" or "transience" like the difference between a horn and a reflex box or a cardio vs conventional sub arrangement. Is there a way ?
FWIW I array subs something like this slide describes:
 

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Re: First post for me

I also wonder how one could measure "impact" or "transience" like the difference between a horn and a reflex box or a cardio vs conventional sub arrangement. Is there a way ?
FWIW I array subs something like this slide describes:

Well it depends on what you mean by measure. There are a few low resolution techniques. Time frequency distributions; Spectrogram, Wigner-Ville, and other Cohen Class ones. There are the "energy time" plots which are related in a way, there are a couple of papers on AES proving this. There are a number of other more modern methods published in IEEE Instrumentation and Measurement. Also related there is Hilbert Decomposition which you could infer a lot of information from about how various frequency would spread in time given the right stimulus.

I took some McCauley M421 sub woofers out to our local airport and setup a number of configurations on a turntable and tried a few different methods. The best is Hilbert Value Decomposition for "FFT style" clarity. I made a quite memory intensive Time frequency 3-d plot which showed quite a bit of detail but it took like 40gb of RAM to run. Not sure if anything was really gained from any of this at all. But if you had enough time...
 
Re: First post for me

I will probably have the oppertunity to measure @ the start of january again with a complete array of 8 cab's including some cardioid sub array's so i'll try to get as much data as i can also on the sub thing .
after that it might take some time to make sence out of the data and to post it .
If you guy's have ideas about what information you would like to see next to standard measurement data coming out of SIM let me know and i'll try to measure it if possible ......
 
Re: First post for me

Bennett,

Do you have any ideas about how the L/R cardiod setup interacts with the tops set in the same place? Does it affect how you setup your crossover?

I am thinking a 2 sub stack with a single 90 degree box on top as a small portable system.
 
Re: First post for me

Well it depends on what you mean by measure. There are a few low resolution techniques. Time frequency distributions; Spectrogram, Wigner-Ville, and other Cohen Class ones. There are the "energy time" plots which are related in a way, there are a couple of papers on AES proving this. There are a number of other more modern methods published in IEEE Instrumentation and Measurement. Also related there is Hilbert Decomposition which you could infer a lot of information from about how various frequency would spread in time given the right stimulus.

I took some McCauley M421 sub woofers out to our local airport and setup a number of configurations on a turntable and tried a few different methods. The best is Hilbert Value Decomposition for "FFT style" clarity. I made a quite memory intensive Time frequency 3-d plot which showed quite a bit of detail but it took like 40gb of RAM to run. Not sure if anything was really gained from any of this at all. But if you had enough time...



I mean measure enough to get some useful information about, you know ... punchiness. I never get anything useful out of spectrogram, or ETC, when it comes to subwoofers, but I suppose I never really tried to either. I also don't know how to set up a system to measure using Hilber Value Decomposition, but Wikipedia makes me think it's interesting. :) I appreciate your reply, and would be interested in seeing yours or anybody else's subwoofer "punchiness" test methods.
 
Re: First post for me

I mean measure enough to get some useful information about, you know ... punchiness. I never get anything useful out of spectrogram, or ETC, when it comes to subwoofers, but I suppose I never really tried to either. I also don't know how to set up a system to measure using Hilber Value Decomposition, but Wikipedia makes me think it's interesting. :) I appreciate your reply, and would be interested in seeing yours or anybody else's subwoofer "punchiness" test methods.

Brandon, you use a wavelet transform.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrete_wavelet_transform
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wavelet

That's what you see in these sorts of images: http://fulcrum-acoustic.com/wordpre...y-for-loudspeaker-transient-response-2005.pdf

P.S. You meant Hilbert, a method for translating between domains. Commonly used in our industry to calculate what phase should be from frequency response and vice versa. Handy for figuring out what effects are minimum phase and what aren't.
 
Re: First post for me

Do you have any ideas about how the L/R cardiod setup interacts with the tops set in the same place? Does it affect how you setup your crossover?

I am thinking a 2 sub stack with a single 90 degree box on top as a small portable system.

I'm not sure what you mean, out front the interaction is very similar. The sub array now has some pattern control, which may match your tops and may not. It reduces interaction between the two sub arrays. It does not change how I set up my crossover.
 
Re: First post for me

I was thinking that if you set a delay based on the distance between one of the sub drivers and the other, then there would be a different distance to the driver in the top. So out front, in the crossover region, you would end up with 3 sources, the 360 delayed sub, the sub and the top.

It sounds like in practice if I were to set the sub array and then use the total response of the array to set the crossover to the tops it would work out in the total response.