Projector opinions

John Halliburton

John Halliburton

Junior
Jan 10, 2011
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The city with big shoulders
I'm thinking of getting a projector. I use an InFocus 2102 that belongs to the venue I do most of my work at, but....

I think one of the VGA inputs doesn't work.

It's only 800x600 SVGA.

The throw distance is a bit short for the largest use it sees-from the front row of the auditorium to the backstage wall where the screen hangs is app. 30'. Image size is in the 10'x10' to 12'x14' range depending.

I'd like an HDMI compatible unit with commensurate resolution.

I'd like more brightness and contrast. The InFocus has a 2000 lumen/2000:1 contrast ratio spec.

I'm initially looking at one of these:

BenQ Projectors: BenQ MX511 DLP projector

Or perhaps one of these:

BenQ Projectors: BenQ MX660P DLP projector

How much of a step up do I really need in brightness/contrast ratio/resolution in this situation? The InFocus projector has enough brightness to use with computer use when the auditorium is partially lit, but I know the images typically being used nowadays are higher quality-my laptop is HD w/HDMI output and a decent DVD player built in, and I notice the lack of image quality v. what I do elsewhere.

It looks like price/performance ratios are getting better for projectors too.

Best regards,

John
 
Re: Projector opinions

I'm not an expert, but I've been shopping too. If you're trying to throw 30' with a resultant 10' X 10' image, that's going to require a longer lens than comes with most small projectors.

Projectors seem to have the same "pick two" issue of many things in life: Brightness, resolution/quality/lens flexibility, price.

For a high quality image in moderate lighting at those screen sizes, I would prefer north of 3000 lumens. I've used a 4500 lumen projector on a 9X12 screen that looked really good. 2000 lumens on a 7.5X10 screen in the same room was very inadequate.

On the cheap end of things - less than about $5000, you have to pick either brightness or resolution. There are a number of very decent XGA projectors in the 4000-4500 lumen range for less than $2K. There are a couple "crossover" home theater projectors that are native 1080P (1920X1080) for less than $2K, but the brightest I can find is 2800 lumens - the Panasonic PT-AR100U.

Lots of projectors can "handle" HD input and many have HDMI inputs, but that doesn't mean the output is HD - it just means the projector will downscale the HD image to whatever fits on the screen - 1024X576, or something like that.

Also note that digital image size adjustments and keystone correction usually are done by scaling the image on the LCD rather than mechanical/optical means, so this further reduces your resulting resolution if you have a less than optimum throw angle.

If you want both brightness and HD native resolution, you're going to need to spend $4K for the Epson PowerLite Pro Epson PowerLite Pro G5450WUNL Projector - Product Information - Epson America, Inc. plus lens - this projector is sold without a lens, so add $1300 to the base projector price (which is where the $4K number comes from). If you're truly serious about getting the right projector for that particular situation - 30' throw to 10X10 screen, you may have to do something like this anyway, as I'm not sure of the availability of inexpensive projectors with the throw distance you need. They may exist - I haven't researched that.

As to quality and the price range of the projectors you linked to - I'm not sure that you will get what you want for the price range you are suggesting. I'm placing an order for the Panasonic PT-AR100U today, which is the least expensive true HD projector I can find with a somewhat usable brightness.


Edit - just looked more closely at the throw range of one of your links - you might be OK for a 10' screen at 30' throw distance, but you're going to have some trouble if you ever want to do rear projection - the zoom range of most of the little projectors is pretty minimal, so you'll be struggling to find 30' behind your screen.
 
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Re: Projector opinions

John Halliburton said:
After reevaluating, the image size is not quite as large as I remembered. I suspect I'm getting 8'x10-12' with the current projector at that distance.

I'm afraid that the $4-5k price range is out too.

Thanks,

John
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Have a look at the newest Epson offerings. They are surprisingly affordable and they are doing some new "stuff" with the lamps that extend lamp life to thousands of hours, which can really make a difference in long-term cost of ownership. They are also generally a more professional quality projector than a BenQ. Panasonics in general look awesome if you can swing the extra cost. I like Sanyos as well for the money. You're probably going to have to get a long throw lens for your situation, you should probably talk to a manufacturer or rep to figure out what best suits your needs. I would say for an auditorium on an 8x10' screen you'll want to be around 4K lumens and minimum 1024x768 resolution.
 
Re: Projector opinions

John Halliburton said:
After reevaluating, the image size is not quite as large as I remembered. I suspect I'm getting 8'x10-12' with the current projector at that distance.

I'm afraid that the $4-5k price range is out too.

Thanks,

John
Click to expand...

The PT-AR100U 1080P projector I mentioned is $1299 at B&H, and has a reasonable zoom range. I ordered one for my company today and it should arrive Wednesday. I'll let you know how it looks.
 
Re: Projector opinions

John Halliburton said:
The throw distance is a bit short for the largest use it sees-from the front row of the auditorium to the backstage wall where the screen hangs is app. 30'. Image size is in the 10'x10' to 12'x14' range depending.

I'd like an HDMI compatible unit with commensurate resolution.
Click to expand...
I'll address these two together since they are somewhat interdependent. HDMI suggests HD, which in turn suggests 16:9 format images. Yet 10'x10' and 12'x14' are neither a 4:3 format nor a 16:9 format. Going with your later post, it sounds like you may currently have around an 8' high by 10'-8" wide, 4:3 image. That would equate to either an 8' high x 14'-3" wide or a 6' high x 10'8" wide 16:9 format image. So I guess the question is two fold, what image height or viewing distance are you trying to support and what formats are you trying to support (and would letterboxing of 16:9 or pillarboxing of 4:3 be acceptable)?

HDMI will support you current 800x600 resolution, so are you saying that you want a projector with that is a native resolution directly compatible with1080p or some other particular higher resolution? The two projectors you linked are 1024x768 native, which is higher resolution than your current 800x600 projector but still 4:3 format and just the 1024x576 resolution that TJ noted, less than HD, for 16:9 format content.

Also note that image size/format and throw distance are related, so determining the desired image size and format are critical in assessing anything related to the throw distance.

John Halliburton said:
I'd like more brightness and contrast. The InFocus has a 2000 lumen/2000:1 contrast ratio spec.
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What are the ambient light levels and light on the screen like in the space? In many applications it is a struggle to get a 10:1 image contrast ratio when one considers the ambient light on the screen, so projector contrast ratios in the thousands really only have much impact if you have extremely low ambient light levels, such as for some cinema and home theater applications.

The appropriate brightness is going to also depend on the ambient light levels and the projected image size the projector creates. And I say "projected image size" because projector brightness is based on using the full image area the projector can create. For example, when you letterbox a 16:9 image within a 4:3 projected image only 75% of the projector's output applies to the letterboxed 16:9 image, the other 25% of the projector's output relates to the area filled by the black bars at the top and bottom.


In general, you need to determine some basic factors such as whether you want to support actual HD and if that means 720p or 1080i/p, the desired image size and format, how much ambient light may be on the screen, what the screen material is, etc. before being able to assess what specific projector products may be appropriate. You may also need to consider factors such as where the projector would be located vertically and horizontally relative to the projected image and whether capabilities such as lens shift would be beneficial. Other functionality or specifications such as remote controlled zoom/focus, operating noise level, single or multiple lamp operation, network or serial control, filterless operation or self-cleaning filters and so on may also be factors in some applications. For example, in situations with paying audiences and less accessible projectors, dual or quad lamp projectors can be nice as a failed lamp may mean reduced brightness but you still get an image.

If nothing else, any information you can provide on the venue and the use/application may help people make more appropriate recommendations.
 
Re: Projector opinions

Unless you're sitting 5 feet away from a 10 foot screen, real 1920x1080 isn't going to matter. I had a 1280x800 projector for a while and the pixels were indistinguishable from 10 feet away. It looked great.

Also note that DVD is 720x480, so an 800x600 projector is already too much.

There are several aspect ratios to be aware of - standard computer widescreen is 16:10 (1280x800 is an example), standard HD widescreen is 16:9 (1280x720 for example), and regular computer display is 4:3. Since there is a potential for so many different sources, finding the best option is pretty difficult. I think in many cases a 4:3 screen still makes sense since most powerpoints are done on regular screens, and widescreen sources can be stretched or displayed with the black bars on the top and bottom.

My personal experience says to get the brightest projector my budget will allow. Resolution and contrast ratio are secondary. And, just about any DLP projector is going to have a very high contrast ratio since they use reflection rather than transmission to display the image. LCD is generally much lower.

Hopefully this relatively stream-of-consciousness post makes some sense and offers something useful.
 
Re: Projector opinions

Silas Pradetto said:
Unless you're sitting 5 feet away from a 10 foot screen, real 1920x1080 isn't going to matter. I had a 1280x800 projector for a while and the pixels were indistinguishable from 10 feet away. It looked great.
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This is from someone discussing home theater applications, but it graphically shows the issue of higher resolution not necessarily having any benefit in many situations, Chart: 1080P Does Matter - CarltonBale.com.

Silas Pradetto said:
Also note that DVD is 720x480, so an 800x600 projector is already too much.
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A good point as many people do not realize that DVDs are not HD and although some DVD players will upscale to 720p or 1080i/p on HDMI, that can actually be counterproductive unless you have a 1280x720 or 1920x1080 native display as the display would then have to rescale that scaled image to its native resolution. Similar with laptops, scaling a 720x480 resolution DVD image up to a 1366x768, 1280x720, 1280x800, 1680x1050, 1920x1080, 1920x1200, etc. higher resolution, output from the laptop makes little sense if that then has to be scaled back down in the projector.

Silas Pradetto said:
And, just about any DLP projector is going to have a very high contrast ratio since they use reflection rather than transmission to display the image. LCD is generally much lower.
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In many cases the contrast ratios of LCD and DLP have gotten closer and as I noted, many times it becomes a matter of comparing numbers that have very limited relevance to the actual application. Image contrast ratios are basically the peak projected white levels off the screen compared to the black level off the screen, which is often dominated by the ambient light off the screen and in many commercial applications results in image contrast ratios of 15:1, 10:1 or even lower, in which case whether the projector contrast ratio is 1,000:1, 5,000:1 or 10,000:1 may be of minimal relevance. It is different in cinema and home theater applications where the ambient light on the screen may be very well controlled and thus the image contrast ratios much higher.
 
Re: Projector opinions

Brad Weber said:
This is from someone discussing home theater applications, but it graphically shows the issue of higher resolution not necessarily having any benefit in many situations, Chart: 1080P Does Matter - CarltonBale.com.


A good point as many people do not realize that DVDs are not HD and although some DVD players will upscale to 720p or 1080i/p on HDMI, that can actually be counterproductive unless you have a 1280x720 or 1920x1080 native display as the display would then have to rescale that scaled image to its native resolution. Similar with laptops, scaling a 720x480 resolution DVD image up to a 1366x768, 1280x720, 1280x800, 1680x1050, 1920x1080, 1920x1200, etc. higher resolution, output from the laptop makes little sense if that then has to be scaled back down in the projector.


In many cases the contrast ratios of LCD and DLP have gotten closer and as I noted, many times it becomes a matter of comparing numbers that have very limited relevance to the actual application. Image contrast ratios are basically the peak projected white levels off the screen compared to the black level off the screen, which is often dominated by the ambient light off the screen and in many commercial applications results in image contrast ratios of 15:1, 10:1 or even lower, in which case whether the projector contrast ratio is 1,000:1, 5,000:1 or 10,000:1 may be of minimal relevance. It is different in cinema and home theater applications where the ambient light on the screen may be very well controlled and thus the image contrast ratios much higher.
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Brad, thanks for all the info.

I realize that the sizes I quoted aren't really fitting into the aspect ratio standards. I was going off generalities of both computer use and DVD use at the same event last weekend. The screen is a max of 12' x 16', and the projector sits in front of the first row about 30' away.

Movies are sometimes shown, but this is a multi-use situation where Powerpoint and other computer based images are shown as well.

Sometimes these things happen during the day, and the theater space has heavily draped windows up high, so "total" darkness is not possible, and combined with insanely bright Exit signs(seven of them!), it will never be up to a commercial movie theater level of dark. The stage is draped in black all around, which helps since the screen is against the backstage wall, but a better quality image would be nice.

Based on what you've described, it may not matter if a new projector has higher resolution than 800x600, so I'm down to higher brightness, higher contrast, and a lens system with imaging at the 30' distance we use(the current InFocus is definitely past it's rated max of 20').

I do set up a pretty good sound system when we show movies. ;>)

Best regards,

John
 
Re: Projector opinions

Brad Weber said:
The appropriate brightness is going to also depend on the ambient light levels and the projected image size the projector creates. And I say "projected image size" because projector brightness is based on using the full image area the projector can create. For example, when you letterbox a 16:9 image within a 4:3 projected image only 75% of the projector's output applies to the letterboxed 16:9 image, the other 25% of the projector's output relates to the area filled by the black bars at the top and bottom.
Click to expand...

I agree that high resolutions are lost as you go back from the screen.

I will say that 16:9 is the future - even most laptops are heading in this direction, and IMO this is a bigger deal than the resolution. Your point here is relevant - if your projected image is a different shape than the projector, you're throwing away a chunk of your output. Is it better to buy a 4:3 projector and have it work well for 4:3 sources today but struggle more and more as content continues to shift to 16:9 (and that 4000 lumen projector quickly turns into a 3000 lumen projector when cropped to 16:9), or buy a projector in a 16:9 format today? I'm excited to get my projector today and see what $1300 buys. I expect to be impressed, since my baseline is a 7 year old Canon 1400X1050 projector of similar brightness.
 
Re: Projector opinions

TJ Cornish said:
I agree that high resolutions are lost as you go back from the screen.

I will say that 16:9 is the future - even most laptops are heading in this direction, and IMO this is a bigger deal than the resolution. Your point here is relevant - if your projected image is a different shape than the projector, you're throwing away a chunk of your output. Is it better to buy a 4:3 projector and have it work well for 4:3 sources today but struggle more and more as content continues to shift to 16:9 (and that 4000 lumen projector quickly turns into a 3000 lumen projector when cropped to 16:9), or buy a projector in a 16:9 format today? I'm excited to get my projector today and see what $1300 buys. I expect to be impressed, since my baseline is a 7 year old Canon 1400X1050 projector of similar brightness.
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TJ,

Any news to report?

I'm still using the same in house projector, but the building has overbooked it's use a couple of times so far this year, so adding a second projector to the stable is moving up in priority.

Best regards,

John
 
Re: Projector opinions

If you have a way to mount the projector closer to the screen you will be able to eliminate the purchase of a long throw lens and get some more bang for the buck. You will just have to make sure you can have a hardwired remote or rear mounted receiver to operate from the booth.
 
Re: Projector opinions

Ben Lawrence said:
You will just have to make sure you can have a hardwired remote or rear mounted receiver to operate from the booth.
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Most projectors can be interfaced to a network (wired or wireless) and many have browser-based programs to control inputs, keystone/cornerstone, and other features. Others use standalone/proprietary programs for network or serial control.
 
Re: Projector opinions

John Halliburton said:
TJ,

Any news to report?

I'm still using the same in house projector, but the building has overbooked it's use a couple of times so far this year, so adding a second projector to the stable is moving up in priority.

Best regards,

John
Click to expand...
Our Panasonic has been in for a couple months now, and we've gotten it dialed in fairly well. Brightness is more than adequate for the room we're using it in. We are using it for computer projection, and struggled with the picture modes - in the brightest one - vivid - there were artifacts around all the text. I have no idea why anyone would want that - it didn't improve contrast at all. After turning that off, it looks pretty good. We are having occasional HDMI glitches with the laptop - something I think is more the laptop's fault than the projector. I really like the lens shift - it makes a difference in not needing to keystone correct if you can't get the projector in the perfect place.

A friend recommended the Vivitek D963HD: Vivitek D963HD Multimedia DLP Projector D963HD B&H Photo Video

1920X1080, 4500 lumens, less than $1500.

A ministry I partner with ordered one that I'm going to be using at a big conference in a couple weeks. I'll give a report on this one too.
 
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