Choir at rock concert levels

T

Torbjörn Molin

Freshman
Aug 9, 2011
15
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Gothenburg, Sweden
A friend of mine just turned down a gig where he was asked to supply a 40+ channel desk, 40 handheld vocal mics and monitors for a choir that sings arrangements of pop music. They usually use over head mics, but this gig would need to be loud as it's in a club with a lot of ambient noise from the audience and such.
Knowing the choir, they probably aren't that loud unamplified, so the idea of using a handheld for each singer might be a good one. The only thing is that they're on a budget and apparently don't have a realistic idea of what it costs to rent the gear (and operator) needed.

So my question is this: has anyone done this type of gig successfully with limited gear? I'm thinking a combination of overheads and handhelds, but are there any other good ways of micing a choir where lots of gain before feedback is required?
 
Re: Choir at rock consert levels

Torbjörn Molin said:
A friend of mine just turned down a gig where he was asked to supply a 40+ channel desk, 40 handheld vocal mics and monitors for a choir that sings arrangements of pop music. They usually use over head mics, but this gig would need to be loud as it's in a club with a lot of ambient noise from the audience and such.
Knowing the choir, they probably aren't that loud unamplified, so the idea of using a handheld for each singer might be a good one. The only thing is that they're on a budget and apparently don't have a realistic idea of what it costs to rent the gear (and operator) needed.

So my question is this: has anyone done this type of gig successfully with limited gear? I'm thinking a combination of overheads and handhelds, but are there any other good ways of micing a choir where lots of gain before feedback is required?
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For 40 people I'd shoot for 20 mics if on a budget. Fairly open cardioid ala Shure SM 58 or AKG C535 works fine. Put them on round base stands with no boom. Head height, pointing towards the back of the stage horizontally, equidistant between two and two choir members, slightly in fron of each pair of singers. For monitors use two flown speakers or two speakers on stands, either side of the group, but they need to be high and have pretty severe downangle pointing into the choir.

Here is the twist that is needed for this to sound as good as it can, though: Use a device like a pocket radio putting out pink noise or a tone and press it up agains the screen of each mic. Have a helper set the gain for each channel so that they are all exactly the same. The tricky part is to know where the gain should be at as not to overload the preamps, etc. The idea behind this is for the 20 mics to simulate overheads or just a listening environment by just transmitting the entire sound of the choir, but with multiple closer pickup points to allow for monitors and reduce background noise.

To feed the monitors I'd put all the choir mics in a group and feed that to a matrix. That way you can still add band instruments, playback, etc from auxes into the matrix.

Still, the only way for this to work well is for the singers to roughly keep their distance from the mic and not for a few members to "hog" them. Also, the choir actually needs to follow the instructor's instructions, as the mics will truly transmit what the choire sounds like as a whole.
 
Re: Choir at rock consert levels

I've done the 40 mics for 40 singers thing in fact I'm running monitors for another one on Sunday, total of 48 vocal mics including solos etc and the other 48 ins on the venue desk go around a small orchestra and a band, takes ages to set up and I'm sure that for all but the loudest tracks a few good overheads would be fine, however it's the way they do it and it does work, I joined in well after the setup was set in stone and I'm not going to be the one who changes it now. must go and practice my cable weaving before Sunday G
 
The non-intuitive part is that every time you add open mics you reduce the available GBF, so at a certain point you may actually be worse off than just running a few good mics at a distance. This is where I have found small diaphragm (read: 1/4") condensers really shine since they have a very smooth off axis pattern and can offer excellent feedback stability. A choir can actually get pretty loud, it's often more appropriate to single mic soloists or small groups and area-mic choirs.
 
Re: Choir at rock concert levels

Bennett Prescott said:
A choir can actually get pretty loud...
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sorry, it's story time...

i was doing sound at the Kennedy Center Concert Hall in Washington D.C. for a kid's mass gospel choir sometime in the mid-90s. the kid's were all ringers from a bunch of different schools. there were three age groups and for the finale, they all took the stage. we were doing sound checks and all the kids were on stage. there was somewhere in the area of 300 kids up there on risers. they were all perfectly quiet [amazing in and of itself] until the director gave the down beat to hit the first chord in an accapella piece. i happened to be walking across the stage at the time when i was hit by perhaps the loudest sound wave i've ever experienced. no reinforcement. just 300 powerful young lungs singing in perfect harmony. i almost fell down it was so loud. one of the most amazing sound experiences i've ever had. totally awesome!
 
Re: Choir at rock concert levels

brian maddox said:
sorry, it's story time...

i was doing sound at the Kennedy Center Concert Hall in Washington D.C. for a kid's mass gospel choir sometime in the mid-90s. the kid's were all ringers from a bunch of different schools. there were three age groups and for the finale, they all took the stage. we were doing sound checks and all the kids were on stage. there was somewhere in the area of 300 kids up there on risers. they were all perfectly quiet [amazing in and of itself] until the director gave the down beat to hit the first chord in an accapella piece. i happened to be walking across the stage at the time when i was hit by perhaps the loudest sound wave i've ever experienced. no reinforcement. just 300 powerful young lungs singing in perfect harmony. i almost fell down it was so loud. one of the most amazing sound experiences i've ever had. totally awesome!
Click to expand...

That's nothing. I had one screaming two-year old disrupt the sound check for a rock band. Now that's some kind of noise!!!!!!
 
Re: Choir at rock concert levels

Bennett Prescott said:
The non-intuitive part is that every time you add open mics you reduce the available GBF
Click to expand...


At the same time you're moving the source from like 20 feet away from the mic to like 5 inches. How many fewer dBs of gain is needed? Many...


Bennett Prescott said:
so at a certain point you may actually be worse off than just running a few good mics at a distance
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It's also about control: Reducing room, PA, band and audience bleed in the choir channels.
 
Re: Choir at rock concert levels

Dick Rees said:
That's nothing. I had one screaming two-year old disrupt the sound check for a rock band. Now that's some kind of noise!!!!!!
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The original cry baby wha.

I had that at a small diner. Woman doing a guitar solo while her baby niece cried along. That one was kind of cool actually.
 
Re: Choir at rock concert levels

kristianjohnsen said:
At the same time you're moving the source from like 20 feet away from the mic to like 5 inches.
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No reason your overheads have to be 20 feet away.
I run six Audix M1250B lavs in a grid, two rows of 3, each 6 feet apart, 6'6" off the deck.
I have a band onstage with the choir. Works OK. Reducing bleed is key.
I have a small sneezeguard between the snare/hat and the overheads.
Guitar amp faces offstage.
 
Re: Choir at rock concert levels

Dan Richardson said:
No reason your overheads have to be 20 feet away.
I run six Audix M1250B lavs in a grid, two rows of 3, each 6 feet apart, 6'6" off the deck.
I have a band onstage with the choir. Works OK. Reducing bleed is key.
I have a small sneezeguard between the snare/hat and the overheads.
Guitar amp faces offstage.
Click to expand...


How evenly would you say that arrangement picks up the various voices/placements of the singers?
 
Re: Choir at rock concert levels

Ok here is a vid shot from the choir of a show that I mixed. Colgate Gospel Fest 2011 w/ Kirk Franklin: "Silver & Gold" Solo - YouTube

The vocal mics across the front of the stage were condensers and doubled as choir mics... not really needed as such.

I think you can tell that the stage monitors were hot enough for the cam mic to sound pretty good.

There were considerably more then 40 in the choir though.

They were so loud that the drummer was on me for more monitor, more monitor....
 
Re: Choir at rock concert levels

Kirk Franklin?

What a PITA. Several years ago we had 2 promoters call us about a possible date in a big (but not "mega") church. The production demands required so many seat kills the promoters and church would have lost money. The lighting plot was for an arena show and they wouldn't modify it. The rider spent 4 of 17 pages mostly detailing what support acts could/could not (mostly could not) do. I called it the "how to hose the opening act" rider.

By the time the advancing calls were done, both promoters and the church passed on the show and we were relieved that we didn't have to work for this "religious" performer. It was all about the ego feeding and money.
 
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