Add a digital mixer to a analog mixer

S

Shab Mog

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Jun 8, 2012
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Hello,
We have a Yamaha MG16 Mixer. This mixer is placed in a control room and we require some way to access the gain and fader controls from outside the room using an IPAD or tablet App.

As this is a Analog Mixer the above is not possible unless we replace by a full scale digital mixer. Our budget does not allow us to do this and so one alternative is to add a digital mixer like the [h=1]Line 6 StageScape M20d[/h]to the exiting Yamaha mixer - We have group 3-4 open, I am not a sound engineer and don't know what is needed to do this but believe it is possible.

I need some advice as to how to go about this and if it s feasible
any other recommendations are also welcome

Thanks
Shab
 
Re: Add a digital mixer to a analog mixer

The Line 6 StageScape M20d is a full scale digital mixer, just not a large format digital mixer. It has 12 mic/line inputs, 4 line inputs, 4 monitor (aux) outputs and 2 main outputs, which seems a pretty close to match to your analog mixer. So unless you are looking at expanding on the existing input and/or output capability, have you considered simply replacing your mixer with the StageScape?
 
Re: Add a digital mixer to a analog mixer

Shab Mog said:
Hello,
We have a Yamaha MG16 Mixer. This mixer is placed in a control room and we require some way to access the gain and fader controls from outside the room using an IPAD or tablet App.

As this is a Analog Mixer the above is not possible unless we replace by a full scale digital mixer. Our budget does not allow us to do this and so one alternative is to add a digital mixer like the Line 6 StageScape M20d

to the exiting Yamaha mixer - We have group 3-4 open, I am not a sound engineer and don't know what is needed to do this but believe it is possible.

I need some advice as to how to go about this and if it s feasible
any other recommendations are also welcome

Thanks
Shab
Click to expand...

Some time in the past, Behringer made a product that one would connect to the insert connection of each channel on a mixer. Each channel's audio would be routed out of the mixer, into an attenuator, and then back into the mixer. The attenuators would be controlled from a computer. It was intended for use in the studio as a crude automixer/memory type device.

If you can get a hold of one it should work for you and may possibly be controlled from a PC over a network.
 
Re: Add a digital mixer to a analog mixer

It sounds like it would work. You would come out of the Yahama "Insert IO" and into the Line 6 Out of the line 6 to your amps ETC

Another way for the same or less budget would be a SAC (Software Audio Console System). The SAC system would be setup for 16 line ins and 16 line outs so it could go after your Yahama as well. A possible advantage of the SAC system is that as money allows you could expand it with remote fader packs as well as a remote tablet, and you can add more channels at any time (up to 72) and at some point retire the Yahama.

Frank
 
Re: Add a digital mixer to a analog mixer

While you could use a digital mixer in conjunction with the existing Yamaha MG16, whether you added a SAC system, Line 6 StageScape, Mackie DL1608, Presonus StudioLive 16.0.2/16.4.2 or Behringer X32 then it is not clear what advantage there would be to retaining the existing MG16. Trying to use both would seem more complex than just using the digital mixer and even operator familiarity seems to be a moot point if they would normally be mixing using the digital mixer and an iPad or tablet remote.
 
Re: Add a digital mixer to a analog mixer

Tim Weaver said:
Kristian can you search your memory for the name of this device? I had an idea that is quite similar to this, and it would help me solve a nagging problem. If Behringer has already made one, hopefully I can adapt it to what I want it to do.
Click to expand...

I seem to recall them making another device back when catalogues were made of paper, but can't recall what the name was. FWIW, I belive this is either the one I had in mind or it's younger sibling?

Behringer: CYBERMIX CM8000

I don't know what your needs are, but I have to say I am very happy with my remote pre setup with Behringer ADA 8000s modified with Appsys remote gain components that are controlled by MIDI over 100m cat5 :)

Remote Gain Controller

I use a Behringer BCR2000 to control the stage rack that houses the modified ADA8Ks. The MIDI data is wowen into the data stream that transports the digital audio to and from the stage/FOH.

If all you need is to remote attenuate signals you could just use a long MIDI cable to remote control an AGC unit from Appsys and in turn use that to control the gain of some modified ADA8Ks.

If you were to connect the ADAT output of the ADA8K to the ADAT input you end up with a mic/line IN/line OUT remotely controlled unit.

Food for thought, perhaps?:)
 
Re: Add a digital mixer to a analog mixer

kristianjohnsen said:
I don't know what your needs are, but I have to say I am very happy with my remote pre setup with Behringer ADA 8000s modified with Appsys remote gain components that are controlled by MIDI over 100m cat5 :)

Remote Gain Controller

I use a Behringer BCR2000 to control the stage rack that houses the modified ADA8Ks. The MIDI data is wowen into the data stream that transports the digital audio to and from the stage/FOH.

If all you need is to remote attenuate signals you could just use a long MIDI cable to remote control an AGC unit from Appsys and in turn use that to control the gain of some modified ADA8Ks.

If you were to connect the ADAT output of the ADA8K to the ADAT input you end up with a mic/line IN/line OUT remotely controlled unit.

Food for thought, perhaps?:)
Click to expand...
To help the OP understand how this may apply to their situation, as I understand it the Appsys remote gain control requires significantly modifying the preamps and voiding their warranty. And I believe that while it can provide control of the preamp gain, you get no level or clip status of the preamp or mixer levels and no control of the mixer's faders or aux sends, etc. I don't know what Tim is trying to do so that may work fine for him, but it seems an ineffective approach for remote mixing since it seems like it would effectively be mixing with the gains while having no indication of the levels or if you are clipping.
 
Re: Add a digital mixer to a analog mixer

Brad Weber said:
To help the OP understand how this may apply to their situation, as I understand it the Appsys remote gain control requires significantly modifying the preamps and voiding their warranty. And I believe that while it can provide control of the preamp gain, you get no level or clip status of the preamp or mixer levels and no control of the mixer's faders or aux sends, etc. I don't know what Tim is trying to do so that may work fine for him, but it seems an ineffective approach for remote mixing since it seems like it would effectively be mixing with the gains while having no indication of the levels or if you are clipping.
Click to expand...

Hello Brad. I believe you misunderstood.

First of all, I was making the suggestion towards Tim for his "nagging" project.

Secondly, the modification required on the ADA8Ks are right up there with making something like a patch panel in terms of complexity. Each user will have to determine if that is to complex an undertaking to attempt.

The Behringer preamps cost next to nothing and you're pretty much on your own if Behringer stuff breaks anyway, so my conclusion was that I assume greater "risks" every day making normal business decisions, anyway, so no big deal for me.

Although the intended usage (and mine) is to have remote preamps on stage in the traditional sense, along with a digital mixer at FOH, I believe you misunderstood the part where I suggested an alternative use of the Appsys AGC/ADA8Ks. I'll try to explain better:

The discontinued unit that I linked to (that Tim said would fit perfectly for his needs) was intended to work as a row of remotely controlled attenuators that were to be inserted in the insert point on each channel of an analog mixer. The idea was to use it as a rudimentary programmable automixer back in the days when this was super-expensive, but it would work for what both the OP and Tim wants.

If unable to get a hold of this unit on the used market (and a way to control it from far away), an Appsys RGC and some Behringer ADA8Ks could be used to mimic the same behaviour:

Analog send from insert point of mixer channel 1 goes into analog line jack input 1 on ADA8K. ADAT out and ADAT in on the back of the ADA8K are just connected with a shortie patch cable essentially making the unit behave as a typical preamp with no digital connections. Analog output 1 on the back of the ADA8K is connected to the return point of channel 1 on the mixer. Controlling the gain of the ADA8K will then control how much of the send signal is returned back to the return connection on the mixer. Using an Appsys-modified ADA8K unit will have the only difference that the controls are up to 100 meters away.

Even if one were to be unlucky enough that the signal levels in and out of the ADA8K was to be a complete mismatch in regards to the send return signals the mixers wants to see, one could make a custom MIDI setup to make it impossible to get into a problematic range level-wise.

Hope this clears up what I meant.
 
Re: Add a digital mixer to a analog mixer

The Cybermix unit looks cool and is similar to what I wanted, but it seems that control might be problematic. It's and old piece of gear that is no longer supported. It's software is not available through official channels anymore, and the computer required to run it would be a dinosaur.

My original thought was to have a 16 channel rack unit that inserts into an analog console and uses VCA's to attenuate, gate, and compress. You would then control this wirelessly with an ipad or similar.

I get a lot of calls to mix for party bands that have a mixwizard or other 16 channel console. The demands of a private party means that the FOH location is rarely someplace useful, and most likely side-of-stage. While doing one of these gigs one night I dreamed up this unit in my head that was insertable and let me mix wirelessly. A bonus is that if it uses VCA's it would also be able to gate and compress with a little software tweaking.

While this doesn't completely free you from the console, it would make life much easier and shouldn't be hard to produce.
 
Re: Add a digital mixer to a analog mixer

Tim Weaver said:
The Cybermix unit looks cool and is similar to what I wanted, but it seems that control might be problematic. It's and old piece of gear that is no longer supported. It's software is not available through official channels anymore, and the computer required to run it would be a dinosaur.

My original thought was to have a 16 channel rack unit that inserts into an analog console and uses VCA's to attenuate, gate, and compress. You would then control this wirelessly with an ipad or similar.

I get a lot of calls to mix for party bands that have a mixwizard or other 16 channel console. The demands of a private party means that the FOH location is rarely someplace useful, and most likely side-of-stage. While doing one of these gigs one night I dreamed up this unit in my head that was insertable and let me mix wirelessly. A bonus is that if it uses VCA's it would also be able to gate and compress with a little software tweaking.

While this doesn't completely free you from the console, it would make life much easier and shouldn't be hard to produce.
Click to expand...

Interesting project! One downside would be that the monitor sends very often would become post fader, depending on the setup of the console.

One way to go if you already own an Ipad is to purchase the new Mackie digital mixer with the Ipad dock and device a way to quickly hook that up to whatever system the band is using.


Mackie DL1608 | Digital Live Sound Mixer
 
Re: Add a digital mixer to a analog mixer

kristianjohnsen said:
Hello Brad. I believe you misunderstood.
Click to expand...
No, I understood, I just wasn't sure the OP or others would understand that the conversation had veered off on to a different topic. I was concerned that people might confuse what was presented with actual remote control of the mixer when it is not remoting the mixer controls and provides no metering for the mixer or the added preamp, not even a signal presence or clip indicator. It is effectively the same as inserting a computer controlled level control or VCA into the channel signal paths after the mixer's gain/trim.

I personally do not consider opening up a chassis, modifying the internal wiring and cutting the rear chassis panel to mount a DB9 to be similar to terminating a patch panel.
 
Re: Add a digital mixer to a analog mixer

Brad Weber said:
No, I understood, I just wasn't sure the OP or others would understand that the conversation had veered off on to a different topic. I was concerned that people might confuse what was presented with actual remote control of the mixer when it is not remoting the mixer controls and provides no metering for the mixer or the added preamp, not even a signal presence or clip indicator.
Click to expand...

Thanks for helping to keep the forum tidy!


Brad Weber said:
It is effectively the same as inserting a computer controlled level control or VCA into the channel signal paths after the mixer's gain/trim.
Click to expand...

And here I was thinking this was exactly what both the OP and Tim were looking for...





Brad Weber said:
I personally do not consider opening up a chassis, modifying the internal wiring and cutting the rear chassis panel to mount a DB9 to be similar to terminating a patch panel.
Click to expand...

I found the mod to be quite straightforward, but we all have differing skill and conficence levels!
 
Re: Add a digital mixer to a analog mixer

kristianjohnsen said:
And here I was thinking this was exactly what both the OP and Tim were looking for...
Click to expand...
The comment "This mixer is placed in a control room and we require some way to access the gain and fader controls from outside the room using an IPAD or tablet App." makes me believe they want greater control than this would provide and are looking to remotely access the actual mixer controls, but I could be wrong.

kristianjohnsen said:
I found the mod to be quite straightforward, but we all have differing skill and conficence levels!
Click to expand...
It is pretty straightforward if you have the right tools, but it is almost certainly to void any warranty and may make service by anyone else more challenging. For me it's one of those "I might do it for my personal stuff but maybe not to the church's gear" things.
 
Re: Add a digital mixer to a analog mixer

Why not get a StudioLive 16.4.2
Has Ipad control and is less expensive than the Line 6 mixer you mentioned
 
Re: Add a digital mixer to a analog mixer

As an Orthodox Contrarian, I find the studio live to suck.

There, I said it.

Yes, I've mixed on one. I'll take an 01v96 any time for any reason over this... thing.
 
Re: Add a digital mixer to a analog mixer

I belong to a Contrarian sect myself, LOL!


He has a Yamaha MG16

I have issues with the SL, but would take one over a MG16 every day
(and it has the app he says he needs and the 01v (regardless of version) does not work on Ipad)
 
Re: Add a digital mixer to a analog mixer

Here's another vote for the StudioLive 16.4.2. While not the most ideal mixer in the world, I'd take one over an MG16 any day. It's a far superior board, and would give you full iPad remote control for far less than the Line 6 you said could be an option.

How is that board out of your budget, but the Line 6 is an option??
 
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