lab gruppen clones - would you buy/use one?

Shane Presley

Shane Presley

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Jan 12, 2011
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Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
www.bssproductions.com
So after having an amp failure due to power stability on my last gig (QSC PLX 3402), I'm faced with just replacing it, or replacing them all (bouncing the remaining down to the monitor kit), and I was looking for lighter, more compact, options...
I happened across this AVS forum, where a guy in the states had purchased some chinese lab knock off's.
Lab Gruppen FP14000 clone amplifiers

I'm not saying I'd power my A kit foh with them, but 2 x 10000q for bi-amp monitors, or b kit duty... if they worked..... ? thoughts?

Can anyone expand on what the TECHNICAL pit falls might be in using this amp. I'm not talking about the risk of not getting it, sending money to china, no warranty risk etc... or the fact that the BE, may or may not tell the different from the faceplate... I'm talking straight, if it works, or does not work as intended, what are the sound / technical implications of them not "getting it right"...

Thanks
 
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Re: lab gruppen clones - would you buy/use one?

Considering the major failures with Crown and their American-made Itech series, and how it seems that just a small design issue can lead to huge destructive failures, would you really trust your show to an amp made to intentionally rip off a real brand?

This is about akin to using an EP2500 as an RMX2450 clone on an even riskier level.
 
Re: lab gruppen clones - would you buy/use one?

What happens when the amp fails, and there's no protection circuitry to prevent DC voltage from frying all of the speakers attached to the amp? The known brand names build in a lot of fail safe circuitry into the amps that kick in when things go wrong. Do you know that this exists in the cheaper designs?

The cheap price is definitely tempting, but when things go wrong, they can go really, really wrong. I doubt that these are UL listed either. If one decides to catch fire, are you prepared to pay the bill for that?
 
Re: lab gruppen clones - would you buy/use one?

Thank you brian. That is the answer i was looking for. Dc protection. However i would have to assume that if they reverse eng this amp they would have to put all of "humpty" together for it to work? It may not be the exact lab component but you would think they would need to include that circuit. Did anyone click on the link. Check the guts out? Im tempted to buy one and send it to langston for confirmation or destructive testing whichever came first :)
 
Re: lab gruppen clones - would you buy/use one?

Shane Presley said:
Thank you brian. That is the answer i was looking for. Dc protection. However i would have to assume that if they reverse eng this amp they would have to put all of "humpty" together for it to work? It may not be the exact lab component but you would think they would need to include that circuit. Did anyone click on the link. Check the guts out? Im tempted to buy one and send it to langston for confirmation or destructive testing whichever came first :)
Click to expand...


Maybe PM Mike Diack. I remember him saying he repaired some LG clones a while ago. No destruction needed!

I think the opprobrium among forum members is 1 part legitimate concern regarding safety and liability and 2 parts general dislike for openly supporting flagrant intellectual property theft.

I've picked up PL380's for amounts that seem very reasonable. A bit more money - but you've already got a bunch of them and there are no dodgy electronics (I'm guessing no CSA approval on these, though I understand some ESA inspection can be done) and no IP concerns...
 
Re: lab gruppen clones - would you buy/use one?

Shane Presley said:
Thank you brian. That is the answer i was looking for. Dc protection. However i would have to assume that if they reverse eng this amp they would have to put all of "humpty" together for it to work? It may not be the exact lab component but you would think they would need to include that circuit. Did anyone click on the link. Check the guts out? Im tempted to buy one and send it to langston for confirmation or destructive testing whichever came first :)
Click to expand...

If I remember correctly-the clones are not exact clones. They only look the same in some aspects.

There is a reason why they are so much less expensive.
 
Re: lab gruppen clones - would you buy/use one?

I bought an fp6400 clone. It was less then $600 shipped to the USA, and I'll have it in a week. I'm very curious how it performs. For the price, I couldn't say no. It comes with a 1 year warranty, and the engineer I talked to seemed pretty knowledgeable and content. Based on what I've read, they're solid in fixed installations. We'll see what happens...



Evan
 
Re: lab gruppen clones - would you buy/use one?

Why are you looking at those amps? Is the price that gets your attention? There are other amps that i trust a lot more and they are European made, not Chinese.
PM me for details i dont want to advertise here because i am a dealer for them.
 
Re: lab gruppen clones - would you buy/use one?

Evan Kirkendall said:
I bought an fp6400 clone. It was less then $600 shipped to the USA, and I'll have it in a week. I'm very curious how it performs. For the price, I couldn't say no. It comes with a 1 year warranty, and the engineer I talked to seemed pretty knowledgeable and content. Based on what I've read, they're solid in fixed installations. We'll see what happens...



Evan
Click to expand...
are they UL approved?

Does the one year warranty cover shipping both ways?

Is their local service/support... ?

The integrity of IP usage is a secondary matter, buyers need to evaluate more practical concerns.

There is no reason why a Chinese company could not independently develop a credible high power switching amp while it seems unlikely they would do so in isolation without the decades of experience large western amp companies have accumulated. Supporting such borrowing dilutes the resources and efforts of the companies generating original design. YMMV

JR
 
Re: lab gruppen clones - would you buy/use one?

Personally, I'd rather have a Behringer or Samson than a clone with no infrastructure in my own country. I mean -- once you've chosen to go with a brand without a reputation, why not go ahead and get one where you've got legal recourse if things go wrong. And a Behringer iNuke cost less.
 
Re: lab gruppen clones - would you buy/use one?

Jim King said:
Personally, I'd rather have a Behringer or Samson than a clone with no infrastructure in my own country. I mean -- once you've chosen to go with a brand without a reputation, why not go ahead and get one where you've got legal recourse if things go wrong. And a Behringer iNuke cost less.
Click to expand...

FWIW - I was interested specifically in the FP10000Q version of thier amp... the fact that there are 4 amp channels in two spaces, makes my bi-amp monitor rack get really small, and really light.... and it's just under 4K shipped to my door for 4 amps.... 16 channels of amplification.....
As for the UL listing etc.. I could get it inspected here and get an ontario hydro sticker on it, does that glaze over the liability, probably not but it's a small step. Would I run these until they caught fire, ugh no... so my only concern is the protection of the down stream items... my XW wedges... I'm hoping Evan will have some good news with the FP6400. Evan did you order from the sanway site ?
 
Re: lab gruppen clones - would you buy/use one?

Shane Presley said:
FWIW - I was interested specifically in the FP10000Q version of thier amp... the fact that there are 4 amp channels in two spaces, makes my bi-amp monitor rack get really small, and really light.... and it's just under 4K shipped to my door for 4 amps.... 16 channels of amplification.....
As for the UL listing etc.. I could get it inspected here and get an ontario hydro sticker on it, does that glaze over the liability, probably not but it's a small step. Would I run these until they caught fire, ugh no... so my only concern is the protection of the down stream items... my XW wedges... I'm hoping Evan will have some good news with the FP6400. Evan did you order from the sanway site ?
Click to expand...

For Canada the equivalent is CSA or CUL a new harmonized standard of CSA with UL.

I recall one situation I had at my old day job, with a transformer in a product that failed a CSA test. My boss suggested that I submit it to Hydro for the more relaxed, wink and nod approval. I refused, and had the transformer redesigned, even though it cost me a little more time and money... I take human safety seriously. I don't know if Ontario Hydro has changed over the years, but my experience was that Hydro was not as rigorous as other safety agencies.

But like i said before, what could possibly go wrong? :)

JR
 
Re: lab gruppen clones - would you buy/use one?

I remember reading that thread a while back. As low as the price is, there is no way I would do it. If it really comes down to needing super low price and weight, I would be inclined towards one of the new (shipping very shortly) Behringer 4 channel iNuke amps before I would buy from an unknown source. At least the Behringer will have a 3 year warranty and will have north american service support. Seriously. Put some gaff over the logo or a screen over the front of your rack if the brand name image is still a concern.

From the linked thread (trimmed for brevity):
"All in all, I had a 50% fail rate with Sanway. Each time it was the VPL circuit. ...it's been my experience that they have no clue what the VPL circuit is or what it's supposed to do. Maybe if you speak and write Mandarin you'll get a different response because Chinese engineers are not hired because they're bi-lingual, they're hired because they're good engineers, so there's typically a huge communication problem from you through interpreter to engineer. Just my 2 cents.

I've learned how it works and affected repairs myself, but that's just part of the price of admission."

Not exactly reassuring unless you have the knowledge to perform your own repairs. This is a much more complex clone than something like a speaker cabinet clone - therefore there are many more opportunities for things to appear similar on the surface but be potentially very different.

 
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Re: lab gruppen clones - would you buy/use one?

Shane Presley said:
FWIW - I was interested specifically in the FP10000Q version of thier amp... the fact that there are 4 amp channels in two spaces, makes my bi-amp monitor rack get really small, and really light.... and it's just under 4K shipped to my door for 4 amps.... 16 channels of amplification.....
As for the UL listing etc.. I could get it inspected here and get an ontario hydro sticker on it, does that glaze over the liability, probably not but it's a small step. Would I run these until they caught fire, ugh no... so my only concern is the protection of the down stream items... my XW wedges... I'm hoping Evan will have some good news with the FP6400. Evan did you order from the sanway site ?
Click to expand...

I don't think ontario hydro approves complicated electronics, just power distro and stuff like that.
I used to work for Nortel designing switching power supplies and for CSA testing we pretty much had to have a dozen units ready to be blown up.. basically they would ask "if Q5 happens to become shorted, will it start a fire?" "no?, prove it..."
it was not uncommon to blow up thousands of dollars of product just to prove that no harmful flames/sparks flew out to get a certification.

Jason
 
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