Running a generator on a boat?

Matt Lillie

Sophomore
Jan 11, 2011
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Application: A flotilla of pontoon boats, one of which is HQ. The client would like an audio system on the HQ boat in order to make announcements, descriptions, etc to other boats in the flotilla, about 6 or 8 other pontoon boats. I have plenty of audio systems, none of which operate on 12VDC, and if I did, outboard boat engines don't have the capability to do much more than keep their battery charged.

Next idea, as the system will be a small SOS rig, run a small, quiet generator. The Honda EU2000i looks like a good fit. Here's where my knowledge ends. This is an aluminium boat, obviously in water. The ground in the generator is not tied to neutral as far as I can tell, and there is no GFCI on the outlets. Can I, or should I, 1) Get a GFCI outlet strip and run the audio system through that? 2) Tie the "ground" lug on the generator to the frame of the boat?

The priority is safety.

What other issues might I have that I haven't thought of or don't know I should have thought of?

Thanks!
Matt
 
Re: Running a generator on a boat?

Matt, larger boats like yachts often have their own stand-alone diesel powered generators for running tv's and kitchen stuff. You might want to try researching that aspect to see how they handle grounding. You could probably call a boat repair center and if they are friendly enough, they might be able to advise you. I would reccomend your idea for the eu2000i. It should work well.
 
Re: Running a generator on a boat?

Thanks, Tom. My issue is the aluminium. It's a conductor, and I see issues tying a ground to a conductor floating in a conductor that people are standing on. In a past life, I used to fix boats. 12VDC, fiberglass boats. Ground never went beyond the engine block, and I never dealt with an AC gennie on one. I'm thinking there should be a ground, but I don't have enough copper kicking around to drive a rod in on shore and then drive up and down some reservoirs. :^) I'm just not sure how AC ground should be handled on an aluminium boat. I'll use The Internets and look in the direction you've pointed out.
 
Re: Running a generator on a boat?

The ground that matters is the separate conductor that goes back to the neutral side of the circuit breaker. Do you drive a ground rod every time you use a Honda generator to power tools? What current do think that ground rod carries? If there is lightning coming, the boats need to get to shore and the people need to get off the boats.

Mac
 
Re: Running a generator on a boat?

The ground that matters is the separate conductor that goes back to the neutral side of the circuit breaker. Do you drive a ground rod every time you use a Honda generator to power tools? What current do think that ground rod carries? If there is lightning coming, the boats need to get to shore and the people need to get off the boats.

Mac

I do a lot of things in my back yard that I wouldn't do at a corporate event......
It's my understanding that without a ground/neutral bond, GFIs don't work unless there is a ground. There needs to be a "zero" reference, there's no way for a GFI to differentiate a current loss without it. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.
I can't find a definitive answer on boating forums, most of the references to this situation are from "bowfishers", and there are a lot of opinions but nothing concrete enough for me.
 
Re: Running a generator on a boat?

I do a lot of things in my back yard that I wouldn't do at a corporate event......
It's my understanding that without a ground/neutral bond, GFIs don't work unless there is a ground. There needs to be a "zero" reference, there's no way for a GFI to differentiate a current loss without it. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.
I can't find a definitive answer on boating forums, most of the references to this situation are from "bowfishers", and there are a lot of opinions but nothing concrete enough for me.

Matt,

The obligatory Code/Licensed Electrician/Authority having Jurisdiction disclaimer about dealing with electrical stuff goes right here. That said:

A GFCI/RCD looks for a differential in hot to neutral current. It will trip if this exceeds a certain small threshold, and is agnostic about the alternative path for that current.

In a classic three wire situation, with a standard breaker, if there is a fault to ground the current flows in the ground wire back to the ground-neutral bond point, and it is there that the neutral return path that acts as the current sink to trip the breaker, not the ground. This is because the ground rod to soil connection typically has a fairly high impedance (Z), certainly higher than the neutral return path.

Indeed, if neutral and ground were not bonded, and the third/green wire ran straight to a typical grounding rod alone, it is conceivable that the conventional breaker would never trip as there would not be enough fault current flowing in the third/green wire into the ground rod and finally into the earth to trip the breaker.

For your non-inverter genset, unlike the Honda, the ground and neutral sink points (i.e. the engine block) are one and the same on the generator itself. The third/green wire merely provides an alternative (i.e. fault) return path to the engine block in the event a piece of gear shorts something internally to its case. The Honda is more complicated because of its putative connection to the mains panel of a residence in an emergency outage situation. See TJ's comment below.

The grounding rods we drive have several nominal purposes that they perform with various degrees of success:

  1. Path to earth for lightning. This works much better in a building full of steel in the earth than with a typical ground rod tied to a genset or stage. Indeed the impedance of the ground rod at the much higher frequency components found in lightning could be very high due, rendering the rod effectively an insulator.
  2. Path for fault current. As we discussed above, the majority of the fault current instead follows the neutral return path at the ground-neutral bond point in the typical case with a high Z path to earth through the ground rod.
  3. Genset potential reference to earth. Holds the voltage potential of the generator near the local ground/earth voltage potential, so a conducting path between the genset and (physical) ground has as few volts of potential as possible. This works well as long as the amount of current in the grounding rod is essentially zero. If substantial current flows in the ground rod, its potential is raised above the earth potential via an Ohm's law calculation ( V_raised = (I_ground rod) * (R_ground rod to soil) ).

Ideally the gensets we use would be tied to ground through an essentially zero impedance connection, but that is rarely the case. As long as there is not a substantial fault/loop/local galvanic current in the ground, a standard grounding rod will hold the generator's potential near the earth potential. Once current is flowing into the soil from the grounding rod, though, the potential of the genset will rise above the local earth potential.

In the (not always) hypothetical circumstance where the generator's potential has had an opportunity to float substantially above the earth potential, the genset should be kept physically out of contact by those whose reference would be local earth potential, and who have a conducting pathway to the earth. It is always prudent to de-energize the genset through an insulated path, in the event it has floated above the local earth potential by whatever circumstances.

PS The measurement of the ground rod to earth impedance is similar to what is known as a four probe measurement, and can be conducted using a meter like this B&K.
 
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Re: Running a generator on a boat?

For your small genset, like the Honda, the ground and neutral sink points (i.e. the engine block) are one and the same on the generator itself. The third/green wire merely provides an alternative (i.e. fault) return path to the engine block in the event a piece of gear shorts something internally to its case.
Hi Phil - this is actually not the case per the manual of the generator: http://powerequipment.honda.com/pdf/manuals/31Z07610.pdf page 17. The ground of the generator only connects to the generator frame and the ground terminal of the receptacle.

In situations where there is something conductive that people will be in contact with - metal stage, boat, etc., it is highly desirable to ground the generator to this structure, especially if the generator is not the only source of power. Similarly, multiple generators must be grounded together.

I was actually surprised this generator didn't come with a GFCI outlet. Using one is a good idea.
 
Re: Running a generator on a boat?

Hi Phil - this is actually not the case per the manual of the generator: http://powerequipment.honda.com/pdf/manuals/31Z07610.pdf page 17. The ground of the generator only connects to the generator frame and the ground terminal of the receptacle.

TJ,

Doh! the Honda an inverter-based generator, and neutral and ground aren't bonded together on the generator frame. That doesn't change that the chassis is still the ultimate current sink, and doesn't change anything regarding grounding rod behavior. I corrected the original post to clarify this for the Honda in the residential context.
 
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Re: Running a generator on a boat?

Coincidentally, I have a friend out on a gig today where they are using (or at least trying to use) a Honda EU6500 generator, which comes unbonded, apparently like the rest of the EU series. The reason for this is that they are designed for standby power for home use, and can be connected to your electrical panel, where ground and neutral are bonded inside your house. If neutral and ground are bonded on the generator as well, then the ground wire between the generator and service panel becomes a current carrying conductor, as half the neutral current will flow over the ground path.

This is also why the receptacles aren't GFCI. If they were, the current flowing through the ground wire in the above situation wouldn't be counted by the GFCI device, and it would immediately trip.

NEC 445.20 requires all portable generators with 120v outlets to be GFCI protected, however OSHA
Article 29 CFR 1926.404(b)(1)(ii) exempts generators less than 5.5KW, which is apparently how the Hondas get away with not being GFCI protected.

Throwing more stuff into the soup, portable generators not used for standby power SHOULD have their ground and neutral bonded (not to mention they should have GFCI outlets), however the EU generators don't have an easy means of doing this internally - it apparently requires fairly significant disassembly to get to the location where bonding takes place.

There are different interpretations as to whether an external distro is a suitable place to bond neutral and ground together. One company in the film industry sells an isolation transformer where the secondary is to be grounded, providing the bond without modifying the generator.

Lots of interesting info here:
ScreenLight & Grip's E-Newsletter
and here:
Actual Continuous load of EU6500is
and here:
http://www.nfpa.org/assets/files/pdf/rop/70-a2010-ropdraft.pdf (generator section is article 445, grounding is article 250)

It would be really nice if this were a little more straightforward, and/or there was another choice of quiet, inverter-style generator that could be bonded without voiding the warranty or using third-party components. I would guess that Honda EUs are deployed incorrectly much more often than correctly.

The bottom line, as always, is the inspector wins.
 
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Re: Running a generator on a boat?



There are different interpretations as to whether an external distro is a suitable place to bond neutral and ground together. One company in the film industry sells an isolation transformer where the secondary is to be grounded, providing the bond without modifying the generator.


Any transformer secondary is considered a "separately derived service" and the neutral must be grounded at that point.
 
Re: Running a generator on a boat?

Any transformer secondary is considered a "separately derived service" and the neutral must be grounded at that point.

+1

And, from the physics standpoint, any place where wire leaves its jacket and is terminated is a potentially exposed location where a potential difference with respect to the local earth potential could be observed. The grounding rod is an endeavor to keep these potentials from drifting too far apart, with limited efficacy as discussed in my previous post.
 
Re: Running a generator on a boat?

Matt,

The short story is that it is probably a good idea to bond the genset chassis to any metal parts of the boat you can get access too, and make sure as well that the genset has ground and neutral bonded internally, as it is your point of service. It is always a good idea to use a GFCI in a wet environment. In my experience the EU2000i generator is excellent, the EU3000i is a little quieter, both in measurement and audibly, as its noise has a wider spectrum. It is too bad they don't give 240v service until the 6500i.
 
Matt,

The short story is that it is probably a good idea to bond the genset chassis to any metal parts of the boat you can get access too, and make sure as well that the genset has ground and neutral bonded internally, as it is your point of service. It is always a good idea to use a GFCI in a wet environment. In my experience the EU2000i generator is excellent, the EU3000i is a little quieter, both in measurement and audibly, as its noise has a wider spectrum. It is too bad they don't give 240v service until the 6500i.

Bennett,

I am not sure about connecting to metal on the boat. The boats "bonding" is different from the safety ground of the electrical system. The "bonding" of the metal parts of a boat serves to reduce potential differences which cause electrolysis. The dc system is grounded at the battery. A boat genset should float the ground on the ac system except when it is connected to shore power.

At least that is what I remember from my days working on bigger boats.
 
Re: Running a generator on a boat?

I am not an electrician, but I would want to make sure that a hot coming into contact with a part of the boat wouldn't energize the entire boat and some surrounding water... at least not for long, without tripping the breaker on the genset.
 
My guess it is like a bird on the high power line. Without a place for the current to go there is no damage.

I was once on a boat offshore that took a close enough lightning strike that fried all the electronics but didn't harm any of the people on board.