Shure digital mics into x32 out to analogue IEM latency issues

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Michael Evans

Freshman
Dec 26, 2012
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Melbourne, Australia
I trotted off to Entech 2013 in Sydney this week to look at all the new toys

Looked at the Shure pxd digitl wireless mics that just fit into my price range

BUT, the guys i spoke too told me the latency from the shure into my X32 then fed into my JTS IEM's will be so bad that the users will find it unbearable

Any input from anyone here about this issue or if it can be corrected at all appreciated

Michael
 
Re: Shure digital mics into x32 out to analogue IEM latency issues

Michael Evans said:
told me the latency from the shure into my X32 then fed into my JTS IEM's will be so bad


Any input from anyone here about this issue or if it can be corrected at all appreciated

Michael
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Find out the latency figures for each bit of gear, add them together. :)~:)~:smile:

Generally <5ms is considered OK, but that would depend on the performer.

Chris
 
Re: Shure digital mics into x32 out to analogue IEM latency issues

When you get into all digital, you really need to start thinking about keeping it digital all the way to avoid the conversions, so digital out from the cordless receivers into digital input on the mixer (and so on).
This of course fairly limits the equipment you can use and pushes the budget up quite a lot.

Then again, if the pgxd really has latency of 2.6mS and you consider the low latency of the X32, I'd say you can get by unless you also get digital iem at some stage.
 
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Re: Shure digital mics into x32 out to analogue IEM latency issues

First ... everything digital has some latency involved and it is additive as you add more to the chain. And if you are a vocalist any latency probably causes some comb filtering of your own voice due to the offset compared to bone coduction.

I have heard stories that some users (and I'm speaking of singers with IEMs) are put off by even the addition of a plug-in to a mixer. Of course that mixer is probably adding something nearing 2 ms in any event.

That said I personally use a IEM system in which my headset mic has almost 12 ms of latency through the signal path and it doesn't bother me at all.
 
Re: Shure digital mics into x32 out to analogue IEM latency issues

Don Boomer said:
First ... everything digital has some latency involved and it is additive as you add more to the chain. And if you are a vocalist any latency probably causes some comb filtering of your own voice due to the offset compared to bone coduction.

I have heard stories that some users (and I'm speaking of singers with IEMs) are put off by even the addition of a plug-in to a mixer. Of course that mixer is probably adding something nearing 2 ms in any event.

That said I personally use a IEM system in which my headset mic has almost 12 ms of latency through the signal path and it doesn't bother me at all.
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While this issue doesn't bother me personaly I can hear the chorus effect in my head even with 1mS latency. It's just something one needs to get used to in the end.

At 12mS I'd call it a delay that probably won't sound much like a chorus effect. Many guitarists, drummers and keyboard players would feel the 12mS being way too much for them though...

Now, how about my freq and bandwidth list I asked about on the line6 forum ;)
 
Re: Shure digital mics into x32 out to analogue IEM latency issues

Robert Lofgren said:
While this issue doesn't bother me personaly I can hear the chorus effect in my head even with 1mS latency. It's just something one needs to get used to in the end.
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If you sing into a reflective surface six inches from your face, that is roughly one mS, singing in the shower (regular size cabinet) is probably around 4-5 mS. Definitely chorus effect, but that is pleasant, it is when it feels like a delay that it is unwanted by most, and the consensus (Edit: At which point it gets intolerable) is somewhere around 8mS I believe.
 
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Re: Shure digital mics into x32 out to analogue IEM latency issues

I don't see it right off, but I believe the PGX-D and BLX both have a lot of latency, as in over 6ms. Add 3-ish from a console, and that's getting pretty high. The number I've seen most to aim under is 5ms.
 
Caleb Dick said:
I don't see it right off, but I believe the PGX-D and BLX both have a lot of latency, as in over 6ms. Add 3-ish from a console, and that's getting pretty high. The number I've seen most to aim under is 5ms.
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The pgx is kind of like newspaper delivery in my neighborhood. When the paper arrives you are so surprised you don't notice it is three days late.
 
Caleb Dick said:
A $5 cable beats cheap wireless. Why don't manufacturers separate the Pro from DJ wireless lines better?
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You have to ask?

Because their business is to sell wireless, including to people who can't afford the professional product.

I am currently reading a paperback called "Flash" by L.E. Modesitt Jr. He is a science fiction/fantasy writer who uses cultural impacts as major themes. Runaway consumerism and cooperate greed are a major theme in this one.
 
Jay Barracato said:
You have to ask?

Because their business is to sell wireless, including to people who can't afford the professional product.

I am currently reading a paperback called "Flash" by L.E. Modesitt Jr. He is a science fiction/fantasy writer who uses cultural impacts as major themes. Runaway consumerism and cooperate greed are a major theme in this one.
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Yes I know the answer, it was rhetorical. Had a church once ask if every single wire could be made wireless, and since it would have been so many, to keep the price as cheap as possible. Needless to say, the system has 2(?) channels of wireless, and wired snake/returns.
 
Re: Shure digital mics into x32 out to analogue IEM latency issues

Silas Pradetto said:
Digital inputs will only add latency if there is Sample Rate Conversion happening. On some inputs, this cannot be turned off.
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I cannot think of a case where there is zero latency under any conditions. Can you give an example where digital audio is free of latency?
 
Re: Shure digital mics into x32 out to analogue IEM latency issues

Don Boomer said:
I cannot think of a case where there is zero latency under any conditions. Can you give an example where digital audio is free of latency?
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Can you explain why latency would be generated when compatible outputs and inputs are connected without SRC? I'm not taking AD or DA, I'm just talking digital to digital.
 
Re: Shure digital mics into x32 out to analogue IEM latency issues

Silas Pradetto said:
Can you explain why latency would be generated when compatible outputs and inputs are connected without SRC? I'm not taking AD or DA, I'm just talking digital to digital.
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While not audiable a normal cmos gate has a latency around 10nS.

This means that any piece of digital circuitry adds up to more latency. Just doing spdif or similar transfer adds to latency as the protcol is frame based with some error handling. Fpgas that does signal routing also adds to the latency, and so on....

In the end we end up with some mS delay in a complete digital chain even without analog conversions...
 
Re: Shure digital mics into x32 out to analogue IEM latency issues

I don't know why, but using the aes inputs of a Powersoft K series amp, even without SRC, has around 1 ms more latency than using the analog inputs.
 
Jason Raboin said:
I don't know why, but using the aes inputs of a Powersoft K series amp, even without SRC, has around 1 ms more latency than using the analog inputs.
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Maybe it just uses SRC regardless of the actual sample rate? Meyers Galileo does the same.

SRC is a good method to avoid having to sync to the source.

Gesendet von meinem XT910 mit Tapatalk 2
 
Re: Shure digital mics into x32 out to analogue IEM latency issues

While not entirely on topic...

The maximum amount delay between two different senses of the human body before they can no longer be automatically aligned by the brain is 10ms.

Just a fun fact. Maybe useful in relation to bass response for IEMs.
 
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