A cautionary tale against buying the line6 digital wireless

P

Phil Graham

Honorary PhD
Mar 10, 2011
651
1
18
Atlanta, GA
I dont normally complain about gear, but here at 11:00am in the midst of Easter service, I am extremely perturbed.

I have one channel of line6 wireless for our pastor. I like the sound well enough, it's built well, the headset is decent.

There's just one overarching problem: THE WIRELESS DROPS CONSTANTLY despite brand new batteries tested this am, and 20ft. Direct line of site to the pastor. Our pastor is shouting unamplified currently.

This dropping is not a new thing, but its especially galling on Easter, and I am done giving this product a chance after months of trying to get it to work.

I'm not a wireless neophyte, I deal with fcc part 18 in my day job and have coordinated large uhf rigs. Terms like antenna factor, vswr, erp, reflected power, etc. are squarely in my daily vocab. I answered Bennett's question here on antenna polarity, as an example.

Don Boomer is a nice and knowledge able guy, and the line6 instrument products continue to get better and serve us well. I'll continue to buy those products. The new line6 mixer product looks really innovative for inexperienced users, a cool presage of the future of audio.

This XD V55 wireless product, however, is a totally different story. If you buy it, test it extensively for reliability in your use environment while you can still return it.

I'm buying a shure digital wireless (in a different band) this week.
 
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Re: A cautionary tale against buying the line6 digital wireless

I have a bunch of Line6 wireless v70, and have been using them in my rental stock for at least a year. Never seen any problems even close to what you're describing. I bought it to replace my low-end Shure (PGX) stock, and its outperformed the PGX like crazy. It doesn't get the 300' they claim, but I get 200' even in crowd, and in situations where the Shure drops out the Line6 doesn't.

I'd suggest that you probably have a bad unit, and should send it for repair.

Would I replace Shure ULX with it? Probably not. But I'd use it instead of Shure PGX or even Sennheiser G3 without reservation.
 
Re: A cautionary tale against buying the line6 digital wireless

I have been using a V70 hand held for a couple of years with no issues. I will be following this thread.
 
Re: A cautionary tale against buying the line6 digital wireless

Phil, I have no experience with the Line6 mics, but I do own several AKG DMS70s which use similar (2.4GHz) technology. I know from experience that you should not have wifi devices (eg a smartphone or laptop) near transmitter nor receiver: it will cause dropouts. The AKG handhelds and beltpacks are in fact receivers as well (2-way communication!). This might be the case for the line6 mics as well.
The problem most likely is that a nearby device (strong signal) causes the AGC (automatic gain correction) circuit in the handheld/receiver unit to reduce RF gain so much that it does not "see" the remote (weak signal) handheld/receiver unit anymore.
 
Re: A cautionary tale against buying the line6 digital wireless

Yeah, I use 4-5 channels and the only issue I've had was an older guitar wireless. But I'm using tons of stuff in the 2.4 spectrum. (Mackie dl1608, wireless lighting etc) the mics have been very solid for me
 
Re: A cautionary tale against buying the line6 digital wireless

Jim King said:
I have a bunch of Line6 wireless v70, and have been using them in my rental stock for at least a year. Never seen any problems even close to what you're describing. I bought it to replace my low-end Shure (PGX) stock, and its outperformed the PGX like crazy. It doesn't get the 300' they claim, but I get 200' even in crowd, and in situations where the Shure drops out the Line6 doesn't.
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Jim,

This particular unit has performed quite well for me line of sight outdoors in a low RF environment out to several hundred feet. Indeed it did this well Saturday for the MC of an Easter egg hunt. It is only in the context of our internal RF environment that its performance has been sub-par.

I wish it was as simple as an intermittent manufacturing issue, but the consistently good performance when used in undemanding RF environments indicates otherwise.
 
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Re: A cautionary tale against buying the line6 digital wireless

Phil Graham said:
Jim,

This particular unit has performed quite well for me line of sight outdoors in a low RF environment out to several hundred feet. Indeed it did this well Saturday for the MC of an Easter egg hunt. It is only in the context of our internal RF environment that its performance has been sub-par.

I wish it was as simple as an intermittent manufacturing issue, but the consistent performance in undemanding RF environments indicates otherwise.
Click to expand...

So is the likely culprit a high density of mobile devices with WiFi turned on when the church fills up?
 
Re: A cautionary tale against buying the line6 digital wireless

Peter van Gils said:
I know from experience that you should not have wifi devices (eg a smartphone or laptop) near transmitter nor receiver: it will cause dropouts. The AKG handhelds and beltpacks are in fact receivers as well (2-way communication!). This might be the case for the line6 mics as well. The problem most likely is that a nearby device (strong signal) causes the AGC (automatic gain correction) circuit in the handheld/receiver unit to reduce RF gain so much that it does not "see" the remote (weak signal) handheld/receiver unit anymore.
Click to expand...

Peter,

I don't know the particulars of this unit in terms of AGC, but this general concept is one of the first things I addressed after purchasing the unit. Our private WiFi network for AV infrastructure is on the opposite diagonal of the church space, as far as I can move the units apart within the unit that we lease.

The remainder of our surrounding RF environment is full, as the other tenants of the facility are software development houses. That said, they are evenly distributed across channels 1,6,11, and our wifi-based AV infrastructure operates without incident.

The Line 6 operates most openly on their Channel 4 , with the front panel indicating a consistent 1 bar level interference. If 1 bar of interference on a single unit is sufficient to cause multiple clicks and drops in a minute, I'd hate see what a crowded environment would be like.

I would be fine with the unit telling me "nope can't do this environment" as I know that the ISM band is potentially a mess. If we had that indication at purchase, I could have returned the unit and tried something outside the ISM band.

What is frustrating is the unit indicating it will be able to perform, and then not (repeatedly). While not a fair dollar comparison, if I have WWB tied to an array of UHF-R, my eyes are wide open about what channels are going to be marginal.

Hopefully that provides context.
 
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Re: A cautionary tale against buying the line6 digital wireless

Per Søvik said:
So is the likely culprit a high density of mobile devices with WiFi turned on when the church fills up?
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Per,

This is indeed a likely culprit, but it is not indicated by the unit. It merrily chugs along saying "I only have a little interference in here!" even though its operating performance clearly doesn't match this.

Also, as you can imagine, anywhere a modern audience exists, a pile of wifi transmitters is sure to follow. If this hammered the unit's performance consistently, then it would be unusable in environments where an audience congregates (i.e. all events).
 
Re: A cautionary tale against buying the line6 digital wireless

Phil Graham said:
Peter,

I don't know the particulars of this unit in terms of AGC, but this general concept is one of the first things I addressed after purchasing the unit. Our private WiFi network for AV infrastructure is on the opposite diagonal of the church space, as far as I can move the units apart within the unit that we lease.
Click to expand...
Ok, that's good, but are you sure there's no laptop close by the receiver and/or a smartphone in the pastors pocket?
My experience (with the AKG set) is, that the number of smartphones/wifi devices present in a hall/theatre is NOT a real problem, but a wifi device nearby a handheld, beltpack or receiver IS a problem. A nearby wifi device might overdrive the RF input circuit and suppress the signal from the remote unit (even if on an other channel!).
 
Re: A cautionary tale against buying the line6 digital wireless

Dick Rees said:
Why in the world does anyone need a WiFi enabled device turned on during a church service?
Click to expand...

Besides skyping God I'm not sure, but I'll be willing to bet a dollar that two out of three owners of smartphones don't know how to turn off the WiFi even if they have learned to put their phones in silent mode and flight mode.
 
Re: A cautionary tale against buying the line6 digital wireless

Peter van Gils said:
Ok, that's good, but are you sure there's no laptop close by the receiver and/or a smartphone in the pastors pocket?
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Quite sure. This is the first thing I checked, along with clothing absorption, skin contact, polarization factors, etc. I've checked all the usual suspects with RF transmitters.
 
Re: A cautionary tale against buying the line6 digital wireless

You haven't told us where you have the antenna and reciever placed in comparision to the audience and transmitter.

The reciever has an agc on the antenna input. If your rx-antenna is placed at i.e. foh in the other end of the venue or similar position then the multiple phones/wifi between the transmitter and reciever will overload the analog input and trigger the agc.

This will not affect the digital error correction more than the reciever gets a weaker signal from your transmitter when the agc lowers the gain. You also need to remember that this signal overload is intermittent/random due to number of wifi's and standing waves.
 
Per Søvik said:
Besides skyping God I'm not sure, but I'll be willing to bet a dollar that two out of three owners of smartphones don't know how to turn off the WiFi even if they have learned to put their phones in silent mode and flight mode.
Click to expand...

I agree on the "Don't know" part, otherwise I thought Flight Mode would turn off WiFi as well...

Gesendet von meinem HTC Vision mit Tapatalk 2
 
Re: A cautionary tale against buying the line6 digital wireless

Robert Lofgren said:
You haven't told us where you have the antenna and reciever placed in comparision to the audience and transmitter.

The reciever has an agc on the antenna input. If your rx-antenna is placed at i.e. foh in the other end of the venue or similar position then the multiple phones/wifi between the transmitter and reciever will overload the analog input and trigger the agc.
Click to expand...

Robert,

Transmitter is clipped to pastor's stage right rear pocket, orientated vertically. Transmitter is 7m away, also stage right, direct line of sight located 2m off the floor atop an equipment rack. The rack is approximately 3m upstage of the pastor's standing position. This is essentially ideal receiver placement for RF. Antennas are set for 45 degree angle (the recommended compromise between horizontal and vertical polarization).

I've done RF a time or two, I assure you...
 
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Re: A cautionary tale against buying the line6 digital wireless

Christian Tepfer said:
I agree on the "Don't know" part, otherwise I thought Flight Mode would turn off WiFi as well...

Gesendet von meinem HTC Vision mit Tapatalk 2
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Yes, the flight mode will, I was hoping nobody would pick up on the contextual inconsistency :)~:-)~:smile:. My point is that even though people in general are able to perform the most common taks for attending meetings, sevices and flights, they don't often know how to turn off WiFi and Bluetooth, and are often reluctant to turn off or go to flight mode and thus become unavailable for whatever emergency they are expecting to happen.
 
Re: A cautionary tale against buying the line6 digital wireless

Phil Graham said:
Two common examples:

https://www.youversion.com/
Online Mobile Bible
Click to expand...

and I'm sure there is an online psalm book as well.
I noticed on youversion that you could subscribe, presumably you'll get new installments before they go to print ;)~;-)~:wink:

My wife and my son was performing solo in church today for the easter day service, and they had made the decision to go without headsets or any other mikes. I quite enjoyed not having to do anything. Maybe the solution to the whole problem is to pretend that speaking and singing in a church or theater can be accomplished without aids, or is that too radical :razz:
 
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