Advice for dealing with singers who wander out in front of the PA

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Phil Moseley

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Apr 26, 2013
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Hi
I guess I'm a weekend warrior. I mix a clubland PA for a friend and there is one band where the singer uses a Shure Wireless 58 and she insists on walking out front to be silly. I was wondering if you had any tips with feedback when she walks in front of the PA please?

If she isn't singing, the gate takes care of most of it, but if she happens to be singing, then other than clamping the fader down I don't know what to do.

I have a spare channel on a feedback ferret that I don't really want to use full time because I am never certain of what it is doing to my sound at any given time, but is seems iot might not be a bad idea to have it patched in but in bypass. If it looks like trouble is brewing, I suppose I could always punch it inline until she is done, then bypass it again.

Any sage thoughts please?
Thanks
Phil
 
Re: Advice for dealing with singers who wander out in front of the PA

I'm not sure how sage the thoughts are, and I certainly didn't sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night...

But, you are running a stereo PA system, right? When she walks in front of one stack of loudspeakers, pan her partially to the other side. Don't take her all the way out, just pan it far enough to stop the feedback. Then you can pan her the other way when she walks over to the other stack. She can not be in two places at the same time, so you just have to do the inverse of what she is doing.

While this solution is not great for the imaging of the system, it is a club... and she is walking out in front of the PA system... so you do what you need to do.

Also, you should always be ready to ride the fader as necessary to keep her out of feedback.

Finally, have you tried any other mics that are different from the SM-58 or Beta 58 or whatever wireless 58 you are using?
 
Re: Advice for dealing with singers who wander out in front of the PA

Josh Millward said:
I'm not sure how sage the thoughts are, and I certainly didn't sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night...

But, you are running a stereo PA system, right? When she walks in front of one stack of loudspeakers, pan her partially to the other side. Don't take her all the way out, just pan it far enough to stop the feedback. Then you can pan her the other way when she walks over to the other stack. She can not be in two places at the same time, so you just have to do the inverse of what she is doing.

While this solution is not great for the imaging of the system, it is a club... and she is walking out in front of the PA system... so you do what you need to do.

Also, you should always be ready to ride the fader as necessary to keep her out of feedback.

Finally, have you tried any other mics that are different from the SM-58 or Beta 58 or whatever wireless 58 you are using?
Click to expand...

Yup, panning is SOP for me in situations like that. A different mic would be helpful too. I'd get the Rat adapter that lets you put an OM7 capsule on the Shure transmitter. That will up your GBF considerably where you may not need to pan at all.
 
Re: Advice for dealing with singers who wander out in front of the PA

A simple solution is to say the wireless is broken. Here's your mic with a 10' cord. Problem solved.

Otherwise, next time she does it, do nothing. In fact, crank it up. Give her a pile of feedback into her ear. Surprising how fast some people can learn by that.
 
Re: Advice for dealing with singers who wander out in front of the PA

Phil Moseley said:
Hi
I guess I'm a weekend warrior. I mix a clubland PA for a friend and there is one band where the singer uses a Shure Wireless 58 and she insists on walking out front to be silly. I was wondering if you had any tips with feedback when she walks in front of the PA please?

If she isn't singing, the gate takes care of most of it, but if she happens to be singing, then other than clamping the fader down I don't know what to do.

I have a spare channel on a feedback ferret that I don't really want to use full time because I am never certain of what it is doing to my sound at any given time, but is seems iot might not be a bad idea to have it patched in but in bypass. If it looks like trouble is brewing, I suppose I could always punch it inline until she is done, then bypass it again.

Any sage thoughts please?
Thanks
Phil
Click to expand...

It's possible to get pretty significant output from good gear even when the microphones are in front of the stacks. The tricks are to get the singer as close to the grille of the microphone as practical, get the source as loud as possible, and get the system as linear (magnitude and phase) as possible.
 
Re: Advice for dealing with singers who wander out in front of the PA

Shock collar.

Really, you know she's going to do it. You can be ready with EQ, pan knob, fader or sadistic feedback, but as the Soundguy it's your job to do something. If you screw it up, don't do *that* again. Try something else. If it works, add that to the list of tools and use it as needed.
 
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Re: Advice for dealing with singers who wander out in front of the PA

Rob Timmerman said:
It's possible to get pretty significant output from good gear even when the microphones are in front of the stacks. The tricks are to get the singer as close to the grille of the microphone as practical, get the source as loud as possible, and get the system as linear (magnitude and phase) as possible.
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Absolutely. The deal is: you give me sufficient input at the mic, you can walk out front. And there's a lot of singers willing to make that deal.
 
Re: Advice for dealing with singers who wander out in front of the PA

One of my customers is a soul band and they have an act around James Brown among the crowd: 1 lead singer and 2 backing vocals in front of the PA. SM58 and/or AKG D5 (wireless). I can crank up the volume of the vocals upto the clipping limit of my PA (2x SA 15" top or 2x JBL SRX712). Tip: do NOT use a gate and use minimal compression. Dynamics eat up your gain-before-feedback! And as mentioned earlier: make sure the response of the system is flat.

If the singer walks in front of a PA stack real close, let it feedback one time ;-)
 
Re: Advice for dealing with singers who wander out in front of the PA

Brian jojade said:
A simple solution is to say the wireless is broken. Here's your mic with a 10' cord. Problem solved.

Otherwise, next time she does it, do nothing. In fact, crank it up. Give her a pile of feedback into her ear. Surprising how fast some people can learn by that.
Click to expand...

Before the show ask her nicely not to walk so close to the stacks. She should still be able to go out front without having to stand right the fuck in front of the speakers. When she doesn't listen, just let it ring a bit. :D
 
Re: Advice for dealing with singers who wander out in front of the PA

Everyone (well, most...) has given you good advice. This is triage, not corrective surgery. The idea is to get through their show, shenanigans and all (except for damaging or destroying gear). Being a musician back in the 80s that dealt with a few pricks claiming to be sound guys and taking their bad day out on the players, I try to be as lenient as possible with players to avoid wrecking whatever creative hubris they may be relying to perform (a loose description at best but nonetheless...:o)). If they are doing something that wrecks the production for everyone, then I'll approach them with a Plan B.

The big concern I have was your use of a gate on the performer's vocal channel. Why, pray tell, do you find this necessary?

And in the end, if you and/or her get bit from a little feedback (because you were watching carefully and doing your best, but she still managed to get in a bad spot), it won't be fatal. Just try harder next time. There's far worse things that can happen under these circumstances.

Geri O
 
Re: Advice for dealing with singers who wander out in front of the PA

Hi
Thanks for all the positive support guys.
I don't run a stereo PA, so the pan idea won't work.
She owns her own wireless, so I can't tell her it's broken (although I suppose the receiver could be!). I have some Sennheisers, but they are wired, so...
Couple of you remarked on the gate/compressor use. I use a gate because I figure there is no need for a mic to be open when nobody is singing through it, but I suppose I don't have to use it if you think it is unnecessary. AFAIK every compressor has a gate on it, so there is probably good reason for it. I use about 6dB of gain reduction...thoughts on that??

I don't have so much of a problem when she just walks forwards; thinking about it, there is only really one place around here with a stage big enough to need steps at either side, so I should probably just ask her to stay put at that show because she has no choice but to walk in front of the PA. If she wants to wander, we could probably make a deal that she is not singing when she walks past the PA and I can just yank the fader down.

Thanks
Phil
 
Re: Advice for dealing with singers who wander out in front of the PA

Phil Moseley said:
Couple of you remarked on the gate/compressor use. I use a gate because I figure there is no need for a mic to be open when nobody is singing through it, but I suppose I don't have to use it if you think it is unnecessary. AFAIK every compressor has a gate on it, so there is probably good reason for it. I use about 6dB of gain reduction...thoughts on that??
Click to expand...

Gates are handy to keep stray sounds out of mics that aren't being used. If set up correctly, they are wonderful assistants to the board operator. Of course, pulling down the slider of an unused mic will do the same thing. It won't help a bit with your feedback situation, and if the gate kicks open for whatever reason, it can result in instant feedback without warning if the mic is in a position where feedback could occur.

Compressors make getting into feedback WORSE on many occasions. When the artist is singing, the compressor is pulling down the gain. However, when they stop, the gain goes back up, and feedback can occur at that point. If they were singing their heart out and walked in front of the speaker, it may be fine, but when they stop to take a breath, the gain goes up and feedback city. Without a compressor, the artist has to adjust their singing volume, but at least the mic level is consistent, so you have less surprises.
 
Re: Advice for dealing with singers who wander out in front of the PA

Hi
Really interesting.
What would you advise I do withthe five gate/comps I have in my rack if not throw them away? I still believe unnecessarily open mics (like a ton of drum mics that are used for a few seconds in three minutes) pick up a lot of stage noise that I don't want, but it probably isn't such a big deal unless there is a pair of Marshall stacks roaring away. I also would not be opposed to the "punch" I am supposed to get from compressing drums (and even vocals, although there is not much point asking for advice if I am not going to listen to it). The user manuals all give advice of settings for various aspects...drums, vocals, main mixes, basses, so they must expect them to be used in some form or another.

Does anyone do anything special with drum monitors? We are not big enough to have anything more than a Carvin wedge, but there seems to me to be no good place to put it without it beaming into all the drum mics (another reason for gating the drum mics it seems to me).
Thanks
Phil
 
Re: Advice for dealing with singers who wander out in front of the PA

So if you're gating out a ton of stage noise, what do you hear when the gate opens? Could it be the source you desire PLUS the accompanying roar? Do you think the roar is less audible when it smacks you in the ears when the gate opens???
 
Re: Advice for dealing with singers who wander out in front of the PA

Dick Rees said:
So if you're gating out a ton of stage noise, what do you hear when the gate opens? Could it be the source you desire PLUS the accompanying roar? Do you think the roar is less audible when it smacks you in the ears when the gate opens???
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Agreed. I only gate that which really need to be gated like ringing toms, kick drums, or the occasionally noisy guitar amp. Never vocal mics thought because I find it disconcerting when the gate opens and closes even with light attenuation. Yes, there is stage wash. But it's going to be there when the gate opens anyway. Only it's level is jumping up and down with the gate position.
 
Re: Advice for dealing with singers who wander out in front of the PA

Dick Rees said:
So if you're gating out a ton of stage noise, what do you hear when the gate opens? Could it be the source you desire PLUS the accompanying roar? Do you think the roar is less audible when it smacks you in the ears when the gate opens???
Click to expand...

+1. I remember playing a show with a former band and watching the "sound guy" (very loose term here) trying to gate the feedback out of the vocal mic, nothing better than a half second squeal of feedback after every vocal passage. :lol:
 
Re: Advice for dealing with singers who wander out in front of the PA

OK, you have a valid point. No gates on vocals. But what about a bit of compression and how much? DBX manual says 4:1 with about a 6dB dump. I have a decent board (a Carvin S/L 24) and I can put back some of the lost high end if necessary
Thanks
Phil
 
Re: Advice for dealing with singers who wander out in front of the PA

Phil Moseley said:
OK, you have a valid point. No gates on vocals. But what about a bit of compression and how much? DBX manual says 4:1 with about a 6dB dump. I have a decent board (a Carvin S/L 24) and I can put back some of the lost high end if necessary
Thanks
Phil
Click to expand...

You can compress as much as you want, or should I say, as much as your particular situation dictates. You just need to be aware of how your compressor settings are going to effect GBF.
 
Re: Advice for dealing with singers who wander out in front of the PA

Phil Moseley said:
OK, you have a valid point. No gates on vocals. But what about a bit of compression and how much? DBX manual says 4:1 with about a 6dB dump. I have a decent board (a Carvin S/L 24) and I can put back some of the lost high end if necessary
Thanks
Phil
Click to expand...

I would disagree with both points in this sentence.
 
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