An open letter asking for some much needed advice.

J

John O'Brien

Sophomore
Mar 2, 2011
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Behind a bush.
www.johnheywarddesigns.com
Dear forums members and audio professionals that I have come to love,

While I know just a couple of you personally, I have seen this site grow in knowledge and size over the past couple of years with an incredibly diverse range of people among it's ranks. I love this. I've learned SO much, and it's only the beginning. We have designers and engineers, weekend warriors and tour support, office folk and so many more all wrapped up in the one big family.

And I'd like to ask that family for some advice.

I haven't posted regularly on here in these last few months, but have been browsing when I can. This is a wee bit long, but here's my situation:

Since the beginning of March, I have been on the road 3 months out of the last 4. Not the longest 'touring' cycle in the world, but definitely a long time when you consider that I just had my first wedding anniversary a couple weeks ago. It has been hard to manage to say the least. I have been acting as Road Manager/Production Manager/FOH for an incredible band that just got signed(if that even means much these days) and will be on the radio here starting in November. If they do well on radio, I believe they will go a long ways. But, that also means more and more touring, for not quite as much money as I would like. Not for a good while at least. Because of this touring decision I made, and the bands inability to pay me for two months(no one got paid. the money just wasn't there until recently), I have now stepped in to some pretty serious financial hardships. I'm not bankrupt, but I don't want to even CONSIDER that an option. I want to get caught up, and stay on my feet. My marriage depends on that, and I owe it to my wife. She HAS to be my first priority, and truthfully, I haven't been putting her as such.

I know many touring professionals have families, and can pull it off well, and I'm not trying to step on any toes with what I"m saying. I just know for right now, my focus needs to be on my marriage and getting back on my feet financially. My wife currently lives with her family in Dallas, while I am on the road. Touring has always been the dream job, but I can put off my dream for now, knowing that it will benefit my marriage. Props to you gentlemen that do this, and have fruitful marriages. I'd love your advice ANY time. My thoughts here just pertain to me and where I'm at, and are un-related to anything involving anyone else.

Now that I've mentioned the family side of my dilema, now here's the financial. I'm not afraid to share this and I"m just going to come out with it... After three months of traveling, I've made roughly $2,500 as as Road Manager and FOH(with IEM's done from the mix position).. We carry our own PA, LS9(was there before I came on board) and a small lighting rig. I mix for them, and have seen some spectacular rigs in the past few months, including vDosc, Meyer, d&b(the infra subs are an incredible piece of work) and QSC. Some really cool consoles as well. I've also seen some down right junky rigs, too. From what I can gather, that's a common problem in touring.


To close,

To be blunt, I want out. For now at least It's been an incredible journey, but I can't continue with it and expect any of the logical, common sense things I need to happen, to actually come through. I've worked at a couple of production houses before, and been around great rigs with them as well, and am not afraid to step in to a shop to work for minimum wage! That exclamation point is near about desperation. I love this industry and it's people, and being a part of something that is so much bigger than myself is one of the most rewarding experiences in my life. I don't want to leave the industry, if you can't tell. I have a buddy of mine who is out on the road right now, for 2.5 months, and is making an entire years salary just in that amount of time. I would have made more money in the past few months working a minimum wage job at McDonalds.

All of this to say, HOW do I get out? I would work a shop job cleaning cables and sweeping the floor, just to sit under pros that have done this and continue learning. I've done this before already, but if it paid and kept me around the industry, how is that a bad thing? I want to continue learning and pushing myself. Does anyone know of anyone in the Dallas area that I can just sit down with and discuss the industry with?(I'm currently in Dallas for another week or so before I'm supposed to head back on the road). I'm here to learn and soak up like a sponge. I'm not begging for a job here, although if anyone has advice about that, I'm all ears. I'm begging for advice from the people that have built the very foundation of this industry.

Forgive me for making this long, and if you just read all of this, thank you so much for your time. Please feel free to leave any comments and suggestions on below!
 
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Re: An open letter asking for some much needed advice.

John O'Brien said:
Dear forums members and audio professionals that I have come to love,

While I know just a couple of you personally, I have seen this site grow in knowledge and size over the past couple of years with an incredibly diverse range of people among it's ranks. I love this. I've learned SO much, and it's only the beginning. We have designers and engineers, weekend warriors and tour support, office folk and so many more all wrapped up in the one big family.

And I'd like to ask that family for some advice.

I haven't posted regularly on here in these last few months, but have been browsing when I can. This is a wee bit long, but here's my situation:

Since the beginning of March, I have been on the road 3 months out of the last 4. Not the longest 'touring' cycle in the world, but definitely a long time when you consider that I just had my first wedding anniversary a couple weeks ago. It has been hard to manage to say the least. I have been acting as Road Manager/Production Manager/FOH for an incredible band that just got signed(if that even means much these days) and will be on the radio here starting in November. If they do well on radio, I believe they will go a long ways. But, that also means more and more touring, for not quite as much money as I would like. Not for a good while at least. Because of this touring decision I made, and the bands inability to pay me for two months(no one got paid. the money just wasn't there until recently), I have now stepped in to some pretty serious financial hardships. I'm not bankrupt, but I don't want to even CONSIDER that an option. I want to get caught up, and stay on my feet. My marriage depends on that, and I owe it to my wife. She HAS to be my first priority, and truthfully, I haven't been putting her as such.

I know many touring professionals have families, and can pull it off well, and I'm not trying to step on any toes with what I"m saying. I just know for right now, my focus needs to be on my marriage and getting back on my feet financially. My wife currently lives with her family in Dallas, while I am on the road. Touring has always been the dream job, but I can put off my dream for now, knowing that it will benefit my marriage. Props to you gentlemen that do this, and have fruitful marriages. I'd love your advice ANY time. My thoughts here just pertain to me and where I'm at, and are un-related to anything involving anyone else.

Now that I've mentioned the family side of my dilema, now here's the financial. I'm not afraid to share this and I"m just going to come out with it... After three months of traveling, I've made roughly $2,500 as as Road Manager and FOH(with IEM's done from the mix position).. We carry our own PA, LS9(was there before I came on board) and a small lighting rig. I mix for them, and have seen some spectacular rigs in the past few months, including vDosc, Meyer, d&b(the infra subs are an incredible piece of work) and QSC. Some really cool consoles as well. I've also seen some down right junky rigs, too. From what I can gather, that's a common problem in touring.


To close,

To be blunt, I want out. For now at least It's been an incredible journey, but I can't continue with it and expect any of the logical, common sense things I need to happen, to actually come through. I've worked at a couple of production houses before, and been around great rigs with them as well, and am not afraid to step in to a shop to work for minimum wage! That exclamation point is near about desperation. I love this industry and it's people, and being a part of something that is so much bigger than myself is one of the most rewarding experiences in my life. I don't want to leave the industry, if you can't tell. I have a buddy of mine who is out on the road right now, for 2.5 months, and is making an entire years salary just in that amount of time. I would have made more money in the past few months working a minimum wage job at McDonalds.

All of this to say, HOW do I get out? I would work a shop job cleaning cables and sweeping the floor, just to sit under pros that have done this and continue learning. I've done this before already, but if it paid and kept me around the industry, how is that a bad thing? I want to continue learning and pushing myself. Does anyone know of anyone in the Dallas area that I can just sit down with and discuss the industry with?(I'm currently in Dallas for another week or so before I'm supposed to head back on the road). I'm here to learn and soak up like a sponge. I'm not begging for a job here, although if anyone has advice about that, I'm all ears. I'm begging for advice from the people that have built the very foundation of this industry.

Forgive me for making this long, and if you just read all of this, thank you so much for your time. Please feel free to leave any comments and suggestions on below!
Click to expand...

Just a quick thought:

Regardless of the "the soundman is the invisible band member" mantra, unless your face is on the album and magazine covers you're not part of the band. The band members are committed in a much more binding way than you are. They are the ones that will reap the benefits if they hit great success, you will pretty much be at the same place indefinitely. You'll work on better gear as they progress, but what bills have that ever paid?

If it's not worth it you just tell them you have a familiy and need to be with them. Offer to train the new guy at a row of paid gigs, but don't offer to find the guy.

Best of luck.

Kristian Johnsen
 
Re: An open letter asking for some much needed advice.

John O'Brien said:
...I want to get caught up, and stay on my feet. My marriage depends on that, and I owe it to my wife. She HAS to be my first priority, and truthfully, I haven't been putting her as such.

I know many touring professionals have families, and can pull it off well, and I'm not trying to step on any toes with what I"m saying. I just know for right now, my focus needs to be on my marriage and getting back on my feet financially. My wife currently lives with her family in Dallas, while I am on the road. Touring has always been the dream job, but I can put off my dream for now, knowing that it will benefit my marriage.
Click to expand...
Hi John. Kudos to you for coming to this point before the divorce is inevitable. Too many road dogs were too late.

I just celebrated my 7 year anniversary, and I can tell you that marriage has been incredibly great, and still is. I love coming home to my family, kissing my wife, and wrestling with my 3 year old and 1 year old boys. I wouldn't have any of this had I not been willing to work hard to make the relationship work, and make personal sacrifices of how I spend my time. That wouldn't have been possible with the lifestyle you have been living.

I have found great fulfillment both technically and personally by working a non-production day job (in technology) and doing sound/music VERY part time on the side. I have a job that pays the bills, allows me to own a home and for my wife to stay home with the kids, and I still get to play with sound toys on the side. Most of my work is with my church or related organizations, so I get the double benefit of doing something fun for a cause I'm passionate about.

I would suggest you take a day job out of the field of production for as long as it takes to get on your feet and make some serious deposits in your relationship account. Try to do a little sound work on the side, possibly even donating your time to a church or theater, but be VERY careful about the time you're away from your wife. Going from one job you're always away from home to two jobs that have basically the same result isn't going to do anything for your marriage. Once you're re-established, you can evaluate and see if an opportunity presents itself in the production world, and if that would be good for your family.

Be a positive statistic - stay married to your wife for the rest of your life!
 
Re: An open letter asking for some much needed advice.

kristianjohnsen said:
Just a quick thought:

Regardless of the "the soundman is the invisible band member" mantra, unless your face is on the album and magazine covers you're not part of the band. The band members are committed in a much more binding way than you are. They are the ones that will reap the benefits if they hit great success, you will pretty much be at the same place indefinitely. You'll work on better gear as they progress, but what bills have that ever paid?

If it's not worth it you just tell them you have a familiy and need to be with them. Offer to train the new guy at a row of paid gigs, but don't offer to find the guy.

Best of luck.

Kristian Johnsen
Click to expand...


+1

Offer to continue working for them IF they pay whatever the going rate is for your line of work - in cash - every night.

The old school jazz and blues guys always waited to be payed up front BEFORE they played the gig - no dough no show.
 
Re: An open letter asking for some much needed advice.

I slept on this question last night and to further what Kristian wrote, the band is under no obligation to keep you when they get big.

One would hope they would return the loyalty but the band may be under pressure from management to use other sound guys. Or if you do find yourself the next support act to U2, you may find you need to step up in skill way faster than you're able - I read last year in LSI or FOH about one guy who was in a similar position - fortunately for him he started to swim.

So be aware that loyalty may not continue.

Andrew
 
Re: An open letter asking for some much needed advice.

Guys, thank you so much for the input. I apologize for the lengthy and slightly open-ended post. But, I knew a few answers from you guys would go a long way.

TJ, that's some great insight. Unfortunately, I don't have any experience in anything other than audio! Aside from working kitchens. That's my last resort at this point, though. Read below and you'll see that I might have found a way to combine the best of both worlds. My wife, and my love for audio.

Justice, thank you for the IATSE idea. I'm going to do that and see what becomes of it.

A little update, is that I have found a potential full time gig at a regional L'Acoustics house that has just taken delivery of a K1 system. It's a shop/show position, but it would certainly pay me more than my road gig, allow me to stay around my wife, and provide some extensive experience on some top tier equipment that I previously thought I'd never be able to be around. I'll post more when I find out. They have my resume and we're going to be in touch again when they finish their K1 training next week. It kind of all came out of no where.
 
Re: An open letter asking for some much needed advice.

John O'Brien said:
TJ, that's some great insight. Unfortunately, I don't have any experience in anything other than audio! Aside from working kitchens. That's my last resort at this point, though.
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I hope you do find a good job in the field that pays enough for you to live, and gives you enough time to develop a great marriage. I will caution you, though - beware of rationalizing a "need" to be in the production field. A very large percentage of the workforce is doing something different than their schooling. The world has an over-supply of musicians, painters, actors, dancers, sound guys, etc. A very lucky few are actually financially successful in their field. The rest have adapted to do something the world actually needs - garbage collectors, bus drivers, customer service agents, etc.

An alarm clock that functions and the willingness to work hard to support your family puts you ahead of an alarming percentage of the population. Do whatever it takes to keep your family strong!
 
Re: An open letter asking for some much needed advice.

I agree with TJ, do whatever you can do for your family and give your 100% towards it.
 
Re: An open letter asking for some much needed advice.

Your personal life is your business, not mine, so no comment there.

But, being on the road and working for a band for no money has a very limited appeal, as in no appeal at all, actually, if you aren't considered a member of the band with entitlement to any future proceeds. Certainly one of the unfortunate consequences of the collapse of the record industry (Guess the correct answer to a hypothetical music lover's thoughts: "Should I buy this CD or this iTune, or should I get it get for free from this file-share site?") is the evaporation of the $ advance for most bands out on the road trying to make it. The odds were already slim to begin with that both the label could recoup the advance, and that the band could clear the nut, but at least the advance gave a band some operating capital to give it a go.

Good for you, though, John, for wanting to do whatever it takes to get work doing what you love. All the best in finding work with a regional house.
 
Re: An open letter asking for some much needed advice.

Hi John-

I'm glad to see a more local opportunity present itself. You'll be better off in the long run.

My personal belief is that touring is for single folks, i.e. those without a significant other... or you need to be working with your SigOth every day on the road (feels like a circus). Back when taking a tour gig meant being gone 6 months, it was the only way. It takes exceptional people to maintain a relationship in absentia.

In my roll managing companies for owners, my status as unmarried, no kids (that I know of) means that my bosses and key co-workers have been able to have birthdays with their kids, anniversaries with spouses, attend little league games and school plays. It's cool; I can't think of a better gift for those I work with. The flip side is when I need off, they're ones that say "go, we've got you covered."

As for the rest of your story... working for a band and making little... I can only say that you need to separate business from emotion. Sure, we want our friends to succeed and we love to be a part of that, but if that means you have no equity; you are a replaceable commodity. That's why you should consider the value you bring to your clients and charge accordingly. If someone can't pay, you can still be friends and avoid the eventual hard feelings when the business end changes and not everyone has a seat at the table.

Good luck in your future endeavors.
 
Re: An open letter asking for some much needed advice.

Tim McCulloch said:
My personal belief is that touring is for single folks, i.e. those without a significant other... or you need to be working with your SigOth every day on the road (feels like a circus). Back when taking a tour gig meant being gone 6 months, it was the only way. It takes exceptional people to maintain a relationship in absentia.

As for the rest of your story... working for a band and making little... I can only say that you need to separate business from emotion. Sure, we want our friends to succeed and we love to be a part of that, but if that means you have no equity; you are a replaceable commodity. That's why you should consider the value you bring to your clients and charge accordingly. If someone can't pay, you can still be friends and avoid the eventual hard feelings when the business end changes and not everyone has a seat at the table.

Good luck in your future endeavors.
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I agree with this completely,

Touring is definitely not an easy gig if you are in a relationship, I am just finishing up the last 2 weeks of a 9 week run and my girlfriend (of 7 years) hates it when I am out of town this long. I was lucky enough to find a tour that is only out for a couple months a year usually with nothing longer than 2 weeks at a time and I have an in town production/install gig when I am not on tour. She knows the only reason I am doing this is because the money is so good on the road. It is something that I absolutely love to do, but I would not give up my life at home for one on the road. If I was single it might be a different story, but I cannot see how one would have a family touring 9+months out of the year.

In your situation, you need to get life back in order and give up the dream of touring for the time being. I do not mean for this to be harsh, but I have seen how this starts and often times it doesn't end well. Find a local gig that you enjoy and stick with it until you get back out on your feet. If the band does make it do you really want to be on the road 9+ months a year making a living at this?
 
Re: An open letter asking for some much needed advice.

Hi John,

Boy does most of this thread sound familiar. In the end it all comes down to priorities and most of all what your priorities are at this particular time. Keep in mind that those may change and what you do will hopefully change to match, otherwise you will not be happy. I toured with a band that I loved for almost no money and have no regrets because every day with them was a day that I lived doing what I loved to do most in life at that time. I also recently gave up a job touring with a band that I loved that paid me great money, actually more than I am making now, because I did not want to be away from home that much at this particular point in my life. Again I have absolutely no regrets because my days are spent where I want to be most at this time. The trick is to balance it all each day, each week, each month, etc. If your dream in your heart of hearts is to be on tour and be able to make a decent living at it, the opportunity will present itself if you keep walking in that direction. If your priority at this time is to not be away from your wife that much then make the changes you have to but make sure that is where your heart is for now, otherwise you will be resentful and that is just as bad if not worse than being away.

My relationship survived several tours and many weekends away because she was always at the forefront of my thoughts. Our phone conversations each day and our limited time together was always intense, a constant reminder of why we were together in the first place. I have to add that she was very supportive of me being in a career that made me happy even though she never liked it when I was not home at night. I also never lost sight of the fact that it could be perceived as me off having fun while she was at home working so I always made her time with me important and focused. Learn what her "love language" is and speak it to her. That has to be as important as your sound career if your marriage is equally important to you. I learned that a simple and small gift from the road told her that I was thinking about her while I was away. For someone else it might be 10 phone calls a day and by all means take every call from her even it is only to say that you are setting up or something and you will call her back as soon as you can. If you tell her that then you had better call back as soon as you can or sooner. Self explanatory.

My financial stability survived because I made a decision to "let go" of my dream with the first band I mentioned and regroup to get my financial house in order. A hard decision at the time but one I also don't regret. My stress level went way way down and as I regrouped I was able to buy more and better gear and when I started doing shows again I actually began to make money. Actually enough money that my 'hobby sound company" has bought its own gear and given me some nice paychecks occasionally. In the financial word the bottom line is the bottom line. We all have to be able to pay our bills somehow.

It sounds like you might have been through the worst of it financially if the band is signed now and getting some better gigs. Touring is fun but tough on a homelife and not for everyone. I feel for you but I am sure you will make the right decisions for yourself at this time and even if it appears that you did not, learn from it and it will have been the right decision based on what you knew at the time. Follow your Heart, Balance, No Regrets, Many Faders and Knobs.

-Eric
 
Re: An open letter asking for some much needed advice.

I am in a similar boat being married for just 2 years now.

Even though you are passionate about your work just remember, its still a business. Your wife is MUCH more important. Even the "biggest gigs" are just a memory.
When you are on your death bed, will you have that band at your side? I would much rather have my wife there. Honor her above your work, you can still do a lot of fun things.

You may want to talk to her openly and figure out a way to do short tours a couple times a year.
 
Re: An open letter asking for some much needed advice.

I agree with pretty much everything said. I wanted to add as a husband of 2 and a half years, it saddens me to see so many close friends go through seperations and divorces (1 seperation and two divorces this year so far!). Mostly because of work and being out of town. As a result, I REALLY love my wife, and am thankful for her, and it causes me to be mindful of my hours and not being out of town too much. My wife doesn't mind me being out of town for a few days here and there because she knows I need to get the "touring bug" out of my system every once in a while. Just that now it's because of corporate or install work.
 
Re: An open letter asking for some much needed advice.

Guys, these responses have been gold.

I thought I might get a couple, but the honesty and bluntness has been incredible to read.

You all are absolutely right, family first. It's something I've ever doubted, but just being married a year, I'm still learning how to make that true in my life.

My wife has been burned pretty hard by my recent 'gig' simply because it separated us, and didn't pay the bills. Plus, I never really had a chance to make any strides towards being better about communication while on the road. It was like cutting teeth to make a conversation happen. She wanted a couple hours of my time on the phone, I always said I didn't have that... yada yada. I didn't realize until later that separating that couple of hours over the course of the day, in shorter increments, was possible. By then the damage was already done and she was starting to resent what I was doing.

She doesn't want me out of the audio industry, she just wants me doing something else within. I even mention the possbility of larger, shorter, higher paying tours in the distant future, and she freaks out about that. I just need to take the time to settle where I'm at, and dig in and just get right side up in life. I'm hoping that this regional house works out(I found out sometime next week) simply because it would keep me home, pay pretty darn well, and as a cool side bonus, would actually probably be a step up in my career simply because of the client list and warehouse of gear that they keep on hand.

Don't get me wrong, we're no where near divorce, but we certainly aren't where we imagined we'd be... living with her parents and not a dime to our name. I take full responsibility for that, knowing that my decisions to travel were a huge part of that happening. But I'm choosing to stay optimistic. I've never been a glass half empty kind of guy, and I know hundreds of us are happily married and love our careers. I'll be one of those soon!
 
Re: An open letter asking for some much needed advice.

They aren't paying you near enough. Minimum going rate for that/those gigs even at van level would be 800/1000 wk plus per diem. And that's still dirt cheap. I know very few that have been able to maintain their marriages and families doing low buck tours and only a few more doing the big ones. They're there, just not a lot of them.

Take the shop gig if you can get it or go to the IA. No shame in a good shop or stagehand gig. And you'll make more money. Don't tour just to be touring. You need to support your family and that's not going to happen at your current rate.
 
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