Assisted Listening Device for church

BJ James

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Jan 11, 2011
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Well, this will be a first for me. An upcoming quote has me needing to get the fast track on info for systems to use in a church setting. In ear monitor type deal for the hearing inpaired. And of course, cheap.
Google brings up a lot of companies I haven't heard of before.
Anyone have some info they could share?
Thanks,
BJ
 
Re: Assisted Listening Device for church

You probably ran into -- Listen Technologies, Williams Sound, Gentner ALS, Telex. Any of them are good.

However I am very much a fan of 'fix the room, run it at 85db' If you do that, assisted listening devices aren't needed. Assisted listening devices are a crutch for poor acoustics in many cases.

A budget option is FM transmitter and cheap-o fm receivers running on an open frequency.

Your big expense on assisted listening is the ear buds (everyone wants their own, they don't want someone else ear wax.) and enough receivers to go around, not the transmitter itself.
 
Re: Assisted Listening Device for church

You probably ran into -- Listen Technologies, Williams Sound, Gentner ALS, Telex. Any of them are good.

However I am very much a fan of 'fix the room, run it at 85db' If you do that, assisted listening devices aren't needed. Assisted listening devices are a crutch for poor acoustics in many cases.
Except for the "Monkey See" syndrome. The church down the street has them, so THEY need them too.
 
Re: Assisted Listening Device for church

However I am very much a fan of 'fix the room, run it at 85db' If you do that, assisted listening devices aren't needed. Assisted listening devices are a crutch for poor acoustics in many cases.

I must respectfully disagree. First, I will say that the use of hearing assist should and most likely does apply to the spoken word portion of the service. "Conversational" level is often defined as 70dB so 85dB is going to be excessive.....unless you're a Baptist or Pentecostal preacher. Subjecting an entire congregation to a sound level sufficient for those with hearing loss is not the approach I would endorse. In the churches I do tech support for even 85dB would not be sufficient for those with hearing loss. Not to mention the advantage of the clarity of direct transfer to the ear of the hearing-impaired listener compared to open ambient room sound and the reflections inherent therein.

DR
 
Re: Assisted Listening Device for church

We have telex in our auditorium at school. We are required by law to have it. The receivers have been in a file cabinet for years. I probably should go see what we have for earbuds because it is 15+ year old technology. I can not remember it ever being used.
 
Re: Assisted Listening Device for church

I must respectfully disagree. First, I will say that the use of hearing assist should and most likely does apply to the spoken word portion of the service. "Conversational" level is often defined as 70dB so 85dB is going to be excessive.....unless you're a Baptist or Pentecostal preacher. Subjecting an entire congregation to a sound level sufficient for those with hearing loss is not the approach I would endorse. In the churches I do tech support for even 85dB would not be sufficient for those with hearing loss. Not to mention the advantage of the clarity of direct transfer to the ear of the hearing-impaired listener compared to open ambient room sound and the reflections inherent therein.

DR

Ahh... you make my point very well for me. As for speech levels, the dynamics of speech require you to peak at 85db, or the average level is not loud enough. Above 85 db the ear tightens and goes into compression to protect itself. Maximum intelligibility happens just below this level. So, setting 85db as your peak level for speech is exactly the right call.

I happen to run sound for church every sunday, and also designed the building. The architecture supports early reflections for maximum intelligibility and has none of the late reflections that impair intelligibility. No absorption panels needed.... This building supports amplified and acoustic speech, amplified and acoustic music, and congregational acoustic speech and music. When a building supports all 6 kinds of sound sources, it's really a beautiful thing.

I stand by my statement, In most cases, if your intelligibility or %alcons is where it needs to be for church, hearing assistance is not needed, and an individual persons hearing devices (aids) will be sufficient. Fixing the room should always be the first goal.

BTW -- here's a good pic showing recognition as related to SRT (speech recognition threshold) which is usually around 50db for most people with good hearing. You can see why 85db is important....
 

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Re: Assisted Listening Device for church

Interesting. Two things spring to mind:

1. For older, traditional sanctuary architecture it is far, far cheaper and within the limited budgets available to add a hearing assist system for those who need it and who may or may not have personal hearing aids.

2. The sermons in the churches where I am responsible for sound achieve good speech intelligibility at a level far below 85dB. I must be doing something wrong......

Edit:

Where is the measurement to be taken? Front pews, middle of room, last pews?
 
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Re: Assisted Listening Device for church

Where is the measurement to be taken? Front pews, middle of room, last pews?

don't really care, I have less than a 3db variation any seat in the house. (yea, I've measured them all) The inside seats row 3-6 is a couple db louder than the outside seats row 12-14 so that is where most of our hearing impaired sit. Also because hearing impaired folks typically lip read more than they realize -- they have the best sight lines to pastor in that location as well.

also notice how intelligibility for 'normal' hearing people drop by 10 points going from 85db to 75db?

anyway, we're WAY off topic here, so I'll let it be...
 
Re: Assisted Listening Device for church

As for speech levels, the dynamics of speech require you to peak at 85db, or the average level is not loud enough. Above 85 db the ear tightens and goes into compression to protect itself. Maximum intelligibility happens just below this level. So, setting 85db as your peak level for speech is exactly the right call.
The chart James attached shows that speech recognition increases as the level of the stimulus above above one's Speech Reception Threshold (SRT) increases and that while the increase in speech recognition tends to level off when the stimulus level is 30dB or so above the SRT for those with 'normal' hearing, it continues to rise for those with hearing impairments. One should recognize that the Speech Reception Threshold varies for individuals and that this chart is based on audiometric testing conditions, thus it is not directly addressing how changes in level relate to intelligibility in a space, which can be affected by ambient noise levels, room acoustics, etc. When addressing intelligibility in a church it is probably more directly relevant to consider the effects of signal-to-noise ratio and the acoustical environment.

I'm not sure clear on where the 85dB level noted (which should be noted is unweighted SPL and not A-weighted SPL) comes from. From an audiology perspective, apparently ANSI defines a normal, healthy SRT of 19dB, so 85dB would be over 65dB above that, which seems greater than needed. I've also seen references to the overloading noted occurring at 80dB with changes to phonetics and intonation starting at 75dB. From a sound reinforcement perspective, normal conversational speaking level is around 60-70dB with a 12dB crest factor (I'm assuming that "85dB as your peak level" references the peak level in terms of relating to the average level and crest factor not normal variations in level over some time or between people or the time constant of the measurement) so say an average 77dB peak level. So 75 to 80dB seems perhaps a more reasonable value.

I guess one could use the upper 70dB level for conversation and a 15dB crest factor to derive the 85dB level, however that seems to be pushing the envelope for normal speech and potentially runs into a problem I've encountered that while any additional signal-to-noise ratio may help with intelligibility, that may have to be balanced with the goal of the audio system recreating the natural sound for the listeners.

The architecture supports early reflections for maximum intelligibility and has none of the late reflections that impair intelligibility. No absorption panels needed.... This building supports amplified and acoustic speech, amplified and acoustic music, and congregational acoustic speech and music. When a building supports all 6 kinds of sound sources, it's really a beautiful thing.
As the uses noted represent a rather wide and disparate range of desired acoustical conditions, do you mean that the acoustical environment can be adjusted for different uses or that some 'best fit' balance of compromises was made?

I stand by my statement, In most cases, if your intelligibility or %alcons is where it needs to be for church, hearing assistance is not needed, and an individual persons hearing devices (aids) will be sufficient. Fixing the room should always be the first goal.
Agree fully with the last comment, but the first may be a bit unrealistic. One issue is that not all hearing impaired people have the same hearing loss and not all hearing impaired people use hearing aids. I have had clients tell me to plan on accommodating audience members with hearing loss but that will not use hearing aids. Another rather common situation is that while most churches may not have to comply with ADA, some do and many more choose to, which means that ALS is then an integral part of that compliance.
 
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Re: Assisted Listening Device for church

I certainly don't mean to quibble with the scientific data provided. But I want to err on the side of practicality in that almost all of the situations I see do not have the budget or desire for the proper architectural solution, desiring to maintain the original look of the sanctuary. Secondly, if I set the Pastors volume at the scientifically optimum level the bulk of the congregation would consider it to be too loud. I do think it depends specifically on the congregation being served.
 
Re: Assisted Listening Device for church

In the UK we use induction loop systems as the common hearing aid here has a coil in it to pick up the signal, it is also possible to get recievers with head sets for people who have no personal aid. If designed and installed correctly they are reliable and effective and quite simple to install, the 2 main issues are an electric guitar's pickups act as good recievers and the feedback caused can be impressive so care needs to taken to keep the loop signal clear of any stage etc, the other main problem is if there is a large amount of steel in the building's structure then special designs and loop amps need to be used, check www.ampetronic.com they are about the best over here as far as devices and advice is concerned. G
 
Re: Assisted Listening Device for church

Don't forget that the acoustic necessity of assisted listening devices is not always relevant since ADA mandates the availability of them for many venues. I don't know what the laws are for churches but in theatre we have to make them available whether or not the the sound team thinks it is actually necessary. They are also valuable in that hearing aid users can use the inductance loop necklace (you're getting an appropriate number of those too, right?). In the theatres I have worked at, we use run-of-the-mill el-cheapo headphones instead of earbuds since the whole thing doesn't need to be replaces between users. We do tend to swap them out after a while since the usually break or the foam on the earpads starts to wear out.
 
Re: Assisted Listening Device for church

In the UK we use induction loop systems as the common hearing aid here has a coil in it to pick up the signal, it is also possible to get recievers with head sets for people who have no personal aid.
Due at least partially to the differences in health programs and laws, my understanding is that the UK has pretty much always had a situation where 90%+ of hearing aids have integrated T-coils while the percentage of hearing aids with T-coils was much lower in the US. The numbers are apparently increasing here so that could change. And while not necessarily applicable to all churches, another factor in the US in general is that ADA does not seem to differentiate between IL, IR and RF systems in terms of the number of receivers that must be provided, only in terms of how many of the receivers must be T-coil compatible (which is redundant with an IL system). So regardless of the transmission technology used you apparently have to provide the same number or receivers, which negates several of the potential benefits of an IL system. The net result is that induction loop systems have never had the popularity in the US that they have had in the UK and elsewhere.


My understanding regarding ADA applying to churches is that it depends. In general, ADA does not apply to church facilities and public accommodation (Title III of the ADA), however if you have more than 15 employees than it would apply in regards to employees (Title I of the ADA). It may also apply to facilities that are made available to other groups and for which any compensation is received. For example, a child care center run by the church is exempt but a child care service operated by a private entity out of the same church and paying the church for the use of their facilities would have to comply in relation to the child care function. Of course, many churches decide to voluntarily be as ADA compliant as is possible.
 
Re: Assisted Listening Device for church

I knew that the T-coil thing wasn't as common in the US ( it was a telephone company thing that started it here, the standard phone had an induction coil in its earpiece) however the fact that there are recievers that can be used with headsets means that you can use the system regardless of hearing aid type. My experience of Infra Red systems has been less than good mainly I suspect due to install/user issues plus the transmitters I've seen are less than discreet which compared to a 1 sq/mm cable or under carpet tape is a big plus in churches etc. If there are balconies involved then an induction system fitted correctly lets users sit where they want/can as well.
The law thing here is basically any public place that uses speech has to have an assisted listening device installed so churches are required to do it. G
 
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Re: Assisted Listening Device for church

This is a first for me as well, and I'm a little late to this thread, but hopefully I can add some value.

I was trying to help my congregation with this problem, and in general I agree with the posts... most places aren't going to shell out huge amounts of money to rebuild or refurbish, so you have to go with an assistive listening solution.

I did some research on Williams, Listentech, etc... and they all have the exact same technology and capabilities. Eventually I found this small supplier called Bay Ridge Audio (I think their website is Bay Ridge Audio | Assisted Listening Devices). They were offering the exact same technology at literally half the price, and were extremely helpful on the phone.

Hope this helps...
 
Re: Assisted Listening Device for church

I did some research on Williams, Listentech, etc... and they all have the exact same technology and capabilities. Eventually I found this small supplier called Bay Ridge Audio (I think their website is Bay Ridge Audio | Assisted Listening Devices). They were offering the exact same technology at literally half the price, and were extremely helpful on the phone.
I hope it works out well for you. All I can say is that Listen Technologies (which came out of Gentner and is headed by Russ Gentner), Williams, Telex, etc. have been providing ALS technology for years and have developed reputations for offering reliable, durable products. There's nothing that special about the technology in a RF ALS system and I'm not sure how you could offer something of the same quality for half as much.

Just FYI, Bay Bridge Audio actually seems to be a dealer/reseller rather than the manufacturer, here's the same equipment from another source Landmark Audio Technologies and the same receivers, which are apparently portable FM radios that can also be tuned to the ALS frequencies, appear to be avilable from multiple sources.
 
Re: Assisted Listening Device for church

Everything that Brad said..
I was going to write something similar last night but I was too tired to be concise.
Listen Technologies has a LIFETIME warranty on their beltpacks. do you know how good a portable product that gets handed out to the general public has to be in order to not sink them with warranty repairs?

And before you ask, yes I have had customers with a kit full of units with broken volume knobs and worn out headphone jacks (things that I didn't consider to be warranty items) and Listen fixed them all up for the cost of shipping.

And just because product X says it has a certain range or quality doesn't mean it actually does..

Jason