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Balance
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<blockquote data-quote="Peter Kowalczyk" data-source="post: 129526" data-attributes="member: 4308"><p>Re: Balance</p><p></p><p><span style="color: #3E3E3E"><span style="color: #3E3E3E">Thanks to everyone for thoughtful replies; I figured that many of you have dealt with this issue already.</span></span></p><p></p><p></p><p><span style="color: #3E3E3E"><span style="color: #3E3E3E"><span style="font-family: 'Tahoma'"><em><img src="https://soundforums.net/images/misc/quote_icon.png" alt="" class="fr-fic fr-dii fr-draggable " style="" /> Originally Posted by <strong>John Roberts</strong> <a href="https://soundforums.net/showthread.php?p=84519#post84519" target="_blank"><img src="https://soundforums.net/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png" alt="" class="fr-fic fr-dii fr-draggable " style="" /></a></em></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #3E3E3E"><span style="color: #3E3E3E"><span style="font-family: 'Tahoma'"><em>Pick one... (at a time). </em></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #3E3E3E"><span style="color: #3E3E3E"><span style="font-family: 'Tahoma'"><em></em></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #3E3E3E"><span style="color: #3E3E3E"><span style="font-family: 'Tahoma'"><em>I found while I was managing an engineering group "and" still doing design work myself I literally could not do both at the same time, at least not very well. </em></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #3E3E3E"><span style="color: #3E3E3E"><span style="font-family: 'Tahoma'"><em>JR</em></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #3E3E3E"><span style="color: #3E3E3E"><span style="font-family: 'Tahoma'"><em></em></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #3E3E3E"><span style="color: #3E3E3E"><span style="font-family: 'Tahoma'"><em></em></span></span></span><span style="color: #3E3E3E"><span style="color: #3E3E3E">.. there's the rub - the ability to quickly re-optimize one's meat processor from analytical to creative is as much an issue as the equipment. </span></span></p><p></p><p><span style="color: #3E3E3E"><span style="color: #3E3E3E"><span style="font-family: 'Tahoma'"><em></em></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #3E3E3E"><span style="color: #3E3E3E"><span style="font-family: 'Tahoma'"><em><img src="https://soundforums.net/images/misc/quote_icon.png" alt="" class="fr-fic fr-dii fr-draggable " style="" /> Originally Posted by <strong>Rick Scofield</strong> <a href="https://soundforums.net/showthread.php?p=84520#post84520" target="_blank"><img src="https://soundforums.net/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png" alt="" class="fr-fic fr-dii fr-draggable " style="" /></a></em></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #3E3E3E"><span style="color: #3E3E3E"><span style="font-family: 'Tahoma'"><em>But once the performance starts, I find the energy to perform at my best. It really is sort of like turning the switch from "gear-guy" to "front-man".</em></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #3E3E3E"><span style="color: #3E3E3E"><span style="font-family: 'Tahoma'"><em>-Rick</em></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #3E3E3E"><span style="color: #3E3E3E"><span style="font-family: 'Tahoma'"><em></em></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #3E3E3E"><span style="color: #3E3E3E"><span style="font-family: 'Tahoma'"><em></em></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #3E3E3E"><span style="color: #3E3E3E"></span></span><span style="color: #3E3E3E">Exactly. Kudos to you for reaching a level of competence in both areas where that's possible.</span></p><p></p><p><span style="color: #3E3E3E"><span style="color: #3E3E3E"><span style="font-family: 'Tahoma'"><em></em></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #3E3E3E"><span style="color: #3E3E3E"><span style="font-family: 'Tahoma'"><em><img src="https://soundforums.net/images/misc/quote_icon.png" alt="" class="fr-fic fr-dii fr-draggable " style="" /> Originally Posted by <strong>Brian jojade</strong> <a href="https://soundforums.net/showthread.php?p=84521#post84521" target="_blank"><img src="https://soundforums.net/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png" alt="" class="fr-fic fr-dii fr-draggable " style="" /></a></em></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #3E3E3E"><span style="color: #3E3E3E"><span style="font-family: 'Tahoma'"><em></em></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #3E3E3E"><span style="color: #3E3E3E"><span style="font-family: 'Tahoma'"><em>1. In a 150 cap bar, why do you need 2 monitor mixes?? Are they really going to be that much different? And are you going to have time to make the adjustment to 2 monitor mixes AND FOH?</em></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #3E3E3E"><span style="color: #3E3E3E"><span style="font-family: 'Tahoma'"><em></em></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #3E3E3E"><span style="color: #3E3E3E"><span style="font-family: 'Tahoma'"><em>2. If you're mixing from the stage, is the full X32 the right tool for the job? An X32 Rack and iPad is smaller and easier to set up and would give you the same exact features. You could have everything pre-rigged in your rack, and plug and go. This is exactly what my mini-portable system is. I have 2 8 channel drop snakes attached to the X32 that get coiled inside the cover when transporting. One gets dropped front of stage, one gets dropped by the drums. Now it's nice short patch cables as needed. </em></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #3E3E3E"><span style="color: #3E3E3E"><span style="font-family: 'Tahoma'"><em></em></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #3E3E3E"><span style="color: #3E3E3E"><span style="font-family: 'Tahoma'"><em>3. Make sure you've got the right cables for the job, and STANDARDIZE wherever you can. Having less choices in cable lengths is helpful. I have 10' and 25' and that's it. Sure, there are times where different lengths would be handy, but it's faster to not have to make that decision during setup. </em></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #3E3E3E"><span style="color: #3E3E3E"><span style="font-family: 'Tahoma'"><em></em></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #3E3E3E"><span style="color: #3E3E3E"><span style="font-family: 'Tahoma'"><em>4. Learn to save your presets on the X32. If you're playing with the same band, the time to do sound check from show to show with the same system shouldn't take more than a couple minutes. From what you described, the whole PA should be able to be deployed by one person in about 30 minutes if it's set up correctly and cleanly.</em></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #3E3E3E"><span style="color: #3E3E3E"><span style="font-family: 'Tahoma'"><em></em></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #3E3E3E"><span style="color: #3E3E3E"><span style="font-family: 'Tahoma'"><em>5. Train your band to move heavy things. Then all you have to do is make sure everything is plugged in where it needs to go. Even the least technical person should be able to put a speaker on each side of the stage.</em></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #3E3E3E"><span style="color: #3E3E3E"><span style="font-family: 'Tahoma'"><em></em></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #3E3E3E"><span style="color: #3E3E3E"><span style="font-family: 'Tahoma'"><em>6. Get rid of all of your orange extension cords. O.K, maybe you don't have any, and that won't make a difference in setup time, but having nice black extension cords and power drops on the stage makes it look so much nicer. Looking nicer makes you feel better. Trust me.</em></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #3E3E3E"><span style="color: #3E3E3E"><span style="font-family: 'Tahoma'"><em></em></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #3E3E3E"><span style="color: #3E3E3E"><span style="font-family: 'Tahoma'"><em></em></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #3E3E3E"><span style="color: #3E3E3E"></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #3E3E3E"><span style="color: #3E3E3E">Good stuff here</span></span></p><p><span style="color: #3E3E3E"><span style="color: #3E3E3E">1) singing drummer likes to hear himself, hence wedge #2. Otherwise, I wouldn't bother.</span></span></p><p><span style="color: #3E3E3E"><span style="color: #3E3E3E">2) No, the full-size X32 is not the right tool for this job. Really, I don't know what convinced me to get the full-surface instead of the rack initially; it would be a better fit for most of the gigs I do as a non-performing sound engineer, which are in similar venues. </span></span></p><p><span style="color: #3E3E3E"><span style="color: #3E3E3E">3) A good idea. I've been reflecting on minutes wasted digging for the right-length cable. Keeping them coiled and tied, and training bandmates that elbows are inappropriate cable-management tools will help here.</span></span></p><p><span style="color: #3E3E3E"><span style="color: #3E3E3E">4) After a few gigs now, I have a pretty good starting point. Standardizing the input list to match will help. I need to work on my library of saved EQ presets and channel processing configs, many created while mixing other bands. I guess if I backed up all the saved show snapshots from the console onto USB, I could use X32edit to piece them back together, ya?</span></span></p><p><span style="color: #3E3E3E"><span style="color: #3E3E3E">5) On my to-do list: 10 step setup and troubleshooting guide. They can stack and patch the system, but are stuck troubleshooting when, for example, the preset came up with DCAs down. Note: don't assign DCAs on template presets... I should work on stepping back here and letting them handle things.</span></span></p><p><span style="color: #3E3E3E"><span style="color: #3E3E3E">6) Agreed; I'm slowly replacing all the orange ones in the band's kit <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></span></span></p><p></p><p></p><p><span style="color: #3E3E3E"><span style="color: #3E3E3E">Many comments on drum mics and stage level... We play high energy tunes and always strive for a dance party, hence the subs and a kick drum mic. My bandmates would be heartbroken not to use 'em. No more Overheads in the small rooms from now on; there are three vocal mics up front to get all the cymbals. </span></span></p><p></p><p><span style="color: #3E3E3E"><span style="color: #3E3E3E"><span style="font-family: 'Tahoma'"><em></em></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #3E3E3E"><span style="color: #3E3E3E"><span style="font-family: 'Tahoma'"><em><img src="https://soundforums.net/images/misc/quote_icon.png" alt="" class="fr-fic fr-dii fr-draggable " style="" /> Originally Posted by <strong>Robert Lofgren</strong> <a href="https://soundforums.net/showthread.php?p=84570#post84570" target="_blank"><img src="https://soundforums.net/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png" alt="" class="fr-fic fr-dii fr-draggable " style="" /></a></em></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #3E3E3E"><span style="color: #3E3E3E"><span style="font-family: 'Tahoma'"><em>The musician can't alter the projection and balance of his/her instrument than for a few people.</em></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #3E3E3E"><span style="color: #3E3E3E"><span style="font-family: 'Tahoma'"><em></em></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #3E3E3E"><span style="color: #3E3E3E"><span style="font-family: 'Tahoma'"><em>Five meters away in a crowded bar you only hear the snare and the cymbals from the drums. The guitar amps with its narrow beam (only sounding good right in front of them) begins to sound like crap because the musicians and front crowd blocks the sound.</em></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #3E3E3E"><span style="color: #3E3E3E"><span style="font-family: 'Tahoma'"><em></em></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #3E3E3E"><span style="color: #3E3E3E"><span style="font-family: 'Tahoma'"><em>It has nothing to do with the musicians but rather that the FoH must blend the stage noice and balance it into the rest of the venue without adding any sound level.</em></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #3E3E3E"><span style="color: #3E3E3E"><span style="font-family: 'Tahoma'"><em></em></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #3E3E3E"><span style="color: #3E3E3E"><span style="font-family: 'Tahoma'"><em>I think THAT IS the point... Even for the OP.</em></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #3E3E3E"><span style="color: #3E3E3E"><span style="font-family: 'Tahoma'"><em></em></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #3E3E3E"><span style="color: #3E3E3E"><span style="font-family: 'Tahoma'"><em></em></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #3E3E3E"><span style="color: #3E3E3E"></span></span><span style="color: #3E3E3E"><span style="color: #3E3E3E">Indeed, I like to mic more than 'necessary' when mixing others in small rooms to augment the stage sound (compensate for tilted-back guitar amp in the house, 'polish the brass' as it were, etc.), but thats a subtlety that seems difficult to do from stage. We've enlisted a few well-intentioned friends to take the 'Pad and push faders while we play, but I'm concluding that an inexperienced operator with too many inputs at his fingertips can do more harm than good (No good when I can see the limit LEDs flash while playing on stage while deputized mixerperson du jour is nowhere to be seen in the house.) I even encourage our friends in the crowd to tell us when we need turn down (it helps when the bass player hears it from someone besides me), though that feedback usually comes too late to be useful. The value of _professional_ help is not lost on me, and I've been advocating it to the band, with limited success due to the economics of these situations. I'll be pushing more strongly for an experienced engineer for larger gigs that do require a larger input list. </span></span></p><p></p><p><span style="color: #3E3E3E"><span style="color: #3E3E3E">For the smaller ones though, I'm resolved to eliminate some inputs and focus more on 'mixing' our stage sound before mixing the PA. I fully realize that good sound starts with a good band that listens well and plays dynamically, perhaps even more so in small room. While we're focused in this discussion on technical aspects, I'll be the first to admit that if I were a more competent and fluid guitar player, the whole business of the PA as well would be less of an issue <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /> </span></span></p><p><span style="color: #3E3E3E"><span style="color: #3E3E3E"></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #3E3E3E"><span style="color: #3E3E3E">And if 'fun' is the main objective (and for our style of music, that case could be cleanly made), then perhaps Brian's suggestion</span></span></p><p><span style="color: #3E3E3E"><span style="color: #3E3E3E"></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #3E3E3E"><span style="color: #3E3E3E"></span></span><em><img src="https://soundforums.net/images/misc/quote_icon.png" alt="" class="fr-fic fr-dii fr-draggable " style="" /> Originally Posted by <strong>Brian jojade</strong> <a href="https://soundforums.net/showthread.php?p=84521#post84521" target="_blank"><img src="https://soundforums.net/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png" alt="" class="fr-fic fr-dii fr-draggable " style="" /></a></em></p><p><em>Alcohol. That'll fix everything.</em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em></em><span style="color: #3E3E3E"><span style="color: #3E3E3E">... is most salient. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #3E3E3E"><span style="color: #3E3E3E"></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #3E3E3E"><span style="color: #3E3E3E"></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #3E3E3E"><span style="color: #3E3E3E"></span></span></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Peter Kowalczyk, post: 129526, member: 4308"] Re: Balance [COLOR=#3E3E3E][COLOR=#3E3E3E]Thanks to everyone for thoughtful replies; I figured that many of you have dealt with this issue already.[/COLOR][/COLOR] [COLOR=#3E3E3E][COLOR=#3E3E3E][FONT=Tahoma][I][IMG]https://soundforums.net/images/misc/quote_icon.png[/IMG] Originally Posted by [B]John Roberts[/B] [URL="https://soundforums.net/showthread.php?p=84519#post84519"][IMG]https://soundforums.net/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png[/IMG][/URL] Pick one... (at a time). I found while I was managing an engineering group "and" still doing design work myself I literally could not do both at the same time, at least not very well. JR [/I][/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR][COLOR=#3E3E3E][COLOR=#3E3E3E].. there's the rub - the ability to quickly re-optimize one's meat processor from analytical to creative is as much an issue as the equipment. [/COLOR][/COLOR] [COLOR=#3E3E3E][COLOR=#3E3E3E][FONT=Tahoma][I] [IMG]https://soundforums.net/images/misc/quote_icon.png[/IMG] Originally Posted by [B]Rick Scofield[/B] [URL="https://soundforums.net/showthread.php?p=84520#post84520"][IMG]https://soundforums.net/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png[/IMG][/URL] But once the performance starts, I find the energy to perform at my best. It really is sort of like turning the switch from "gear-guy" to "front-man". -Rick [/I][/FONT] [/COLOR][/COLOR][COLOR=#3E3E3E]Exactly. Kudos to you for reaching a level of competence in both areas where that's possible.[/COLOR] [COLOR=#3E3E3E][COLOR=#3E3E3E][FONT=Tahoma][I] [IMG]https://soundforums.net/images/misc/quote_icon.png[/IMG] Originally Posted by [B]Brian jojade[/B] [URL="https://soundforums.net/showthread.php?p=84521#post84521"][IMG]https://soundforums.net/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png[/IMG][/URL] 1. In a 150 cap bar, why do you need 2 monitor mixes?? Are they really going to be that much different? And are you going to have time to make the adjustment to 2 monitor mixes AND FOH? 2. If you're mixing from the stage, is the full X32 the right tool for the job? An X32 Rack and iPad is smaller and easier to set up and would give you the same exact features. You could have everything pre-rigged in your rack, and plug and go. This is exactly what my mini-portable system is. I have 2 8 channel drop snakes attached to the X32 that get coiled inside the cover when transporting. One gets dropped front of stage, one gets dropped by the drums. Now it's nice short patch cables as needed. 3. Make sure you've got the right cables for the job, and STANDARDIZE wherever you can. Having less choices in cable lengths is helpful. I have 10' and 25' and that's it. Sure, there are times where different lengths would be handy, but it's faster to not have to make that decision during setup. 4. Learn to save your presets on the X32. If you're playing with the same band, the time to do sound check from show to show with the same system shouldn't take more than a couple minutes. From what you described, the whole PA should be able to be deployed by one person in about 30 minutes if it's set up correctly and cleanly. 5. Train your band to move heavy things. Then all you have to do is make sure everything is plugged in where it needs to go. Even the least technical person should be able to put a speaker on each side of the stage. 6. Get rid of all of your orange extension cords. O.K, maybe you don't have any, and that won't make a difference in setup time, but having nice black extension cords and power drops on the stage makes it look so much nicer. Looking nicer makes you feel better. Trust me. [/I][/FONT] [/COLOR][/COLOR] [COLOR=#3E3E3E][COLOR=#3E3E3E]Good stuff here[/COLOR][/COLOR] [COLOR=#3E3E3E][COLOR=#3E3E3E]1) singing drummer likes to hear himself, hence wedge #2. Otherwise, I wouldn't bother.[/COLOR][/COLOR] [COLOR=#3E3E3E][COLOR=#3E3E3E]2) No, the full-size X32 is not the right tool for this job. Really, I don't know what convinced me to get the full-surface instead of the rack initially; it would be a better fit for most of the gigs I do as a non-performing sound engineer, which are in similar venues. [/COLOR][/COLOR] [COLOR=#3E3E3E][COLOR=#3E3E3E]3) A good idea. I've been reflecting on minutes wasted digging for the right-length cable. Keeping them coiled and tied, and training bandmates that elbows are inappropriate cable-management tools will help here.[/COLOR][/COLOR] [COLOR=#3E3E3E][COLOR=#3E3E3E]4) After a few gigs now, I have a pretty good starting point. Standardizing the input list to match will help. I need to work on my library of saved EQ presets and channel processing configs, many created while mixing other bands. I guess if I backed up all the saved show snapshots from the console onto USB, I could use X32edit to piece them back together, ya?[/COLOR][/COLOR] [COLOR=#3E3E3E][COLOR=#3E3E3E]5) On my to-do list: 10 step setup and troubleshooting guide. They can stack and patch the system, but are stuck troubleshooting when, for example, the preset came up with DCAs down. Note: don't assign DCAs on template presets... I should work on stepping back here and letting them handle things.[/COLOR][/COLOR] [COLOR=#3E3E3E][COLOR=#3E3E3E]6) Agreed; I'm slowly replacing all the orange ones in the band's kit :-)[/COLOR][/COLOR] [COLOR=#3E3E3E][COLOR=#3E3E3E]Many comments on drum mics and stage level... We play high energy tunes and always strive for a dance party, hence the subs and a kick drum mic. My bandmates would be heartbroken not to use 'em. No more Overheads in the small rooms from now on; there are three vocal mics up front to get all the cymbals. [/COLOR][/COLOR] [COLOR=#3E3E3E][COLOR=#3E3E3E][FONT=Tahoma][I] [IMG]https://soundforums.net/images/misc/quote_icon.png[/IMG] Originally Posted by [B]Robert Lofgren[/B] [URL="https://soundforums.net/showthread.php?p=84570#post84570"][IMG]https://soundforums.net/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png[/IMG][/URL] The musician can't alter the projection and balance of his/her instrument than for a few people. Five meters away in a crowded bar you only hear the snare and the cymbals from the drums. The guitar amps with its narrow beam (only sounding good right in front of them) begins to sound like crap because the musicians and front crowd blocks the sound. It has nothing to do with the musicians but rather that the FoH must blend the stage noice and balance it into the rest of the venue without adding any sound level. I think THAT IS the point... Even for the OP. [/I][/FONT] [/COLOR][/COLOR][COLOR=#3E3E3E][COLOR=#3E3E3E]Indeed, I like to mic more than 'necessary' when mixing others in small rooms to augment the stage sound (compensate for tilted-back guitar amp in the house, 'polish the brass' as it were, etc.), but thats a subtlety that seems difficult to do from stage. We've enlisted a few well-intentioned friends to take the 'Pad and push faders while we play, but I'm concluding that an inexperienced operator with too many inputs at his fingertips can do more harm than good (No good when I can see the limit LEDs flash while playing on stage while deputized mixerperson du jour is nowhere to be seen in the house.) I even encourage our friends in the crowd to tell us when we need turn down (it helps when the bass player hears it from someone besides me), though that feedback usually comes too late to be useful. The value of _professional_ help is not lost on me, and I've been advocating it to the band, with limited success due to the economics of these situations. I'll be pushing more strongly for an experienced engineer for larger gigs that do require a larger input list. [/COLOR][/COLOR] [COLOR=#3E3E3E][COLOR=#3E3E3E]For the smaller ones though, I'm resolved to eliminate some inputs and focus more on 'mixing' our stage sound before mixing the PA. I fully realize that good sound starts with a good band that listens well and plays dynamically, perhaps even more so in small room. While we're focused in this discussion on technical aspects, I'll be the first to admit that if I were a more competent and fluid guitar player, the whole business of the PA as well would be less of an issue :-) And if 'fun' is the main objective (and for our style of music, that case could be cleanly made), then perhaps Brian's suggestion [/COLOR][/COLOR][I][IMG]https://soundforums.net/images/misc/quote_icon.png[/IMG] Originally Posted by [B]Brian jojade[/B] [URL="https://soundforums.net/showthread.php?p=84521#post84521"][IMG]https://soundforums.net/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png[/IMG][/URL] Alcohol. That'll fix everything. [/I][COLOR=#3E3E3E][COLOR=#3E3E3E]... is most salient. :-) [/COLOR][/COLOR] [/QUOTE]
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