Behringer ? whats your thought on this?

Sep 11, 2011
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Hamburg, NY.
I'm having a hard time understanding this my self.

[h=5]Here's the problem I still have with Behringer, as far as quality and being dependable goes.

inuke 6000, 8 ohms 1100w, 4 ohms 2100w $400
Crest 9200, 8 ohms 1300w, 4 ohms 2200 w $2000 ish
Crown xti 6002 8 ohms 1200w, 4 ohms 2100w $2000ish
qsc pl 340 , 8 ohm 800w, 4 ohm 1250w, $1500 ish
I won't mention Lab or powersoft.

Uli, my question is how can this be possible that you can build a amp equal in power to all the others listed, for so much less money, yet still be reliable?[/h]
 
Re: Behringer ? whats your thought on this?

I'm having a hard time understanding this my self.

[h=5]Here's the problem I still have with Behringer, as far as quality and being dependable goes.

inuke 6000, 8 ohms 1100w, 4 ohms 2100w $400
Crest 9200, 8 ohms 1300w, 4 ohms 2200 w $2000 ish
Crown xti 6002 8 ohms 1200w, 4 ohms 2100w $2000ish
qsc pl 340 , 8 ohm 800w, 4 ohm 1250w, $1500 ish
I won't mention Lab or powersoft.

Uli, my question is how can this be possible that you can build a amp equal in power to all the others listed, for so much less money, yet still be reliable?[/h]

Alan, the specs you posted without the info of how the measurements were taken are useless. The price difference is in the detail that you didn't post.
 
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Re: Behringer ? whats your thought on this?

Maybe the question should be posted to the other manufacturers to justify why their amps cost so much? Behringer uses a pricing model based on their manufacturing costs. Other manufacturers price products as high as they think people will pay. Different mentality. Doesn't always mean better product.
 
Why are BEHRINGER products so affordable?

Frankly, this is THE most asked question in the 24 years since I started the Company. Allow me to re-post a response I published on SF some time ago.

This is such an important question because there is a lingering perception that we must somehow be cutting corners to reduce cost. I have seen people claim that we must be using poor quality parts, not following quality control processes or somehow designing in obsolescence.

While I can tell you that this is absolutely not the case, it may be best if I offer some insights into our business model to explain.


There are four fundamental elements that comprise the selling price of our products; materials, labor, overhead and profit.

Achieving low prices and delivering great value for our customers requires great discipline and hard work in each of these areas. It is my responsibility as the CEO to set the pace and ensure that we reduce costs while always increasing quality; because without quality, we cannot maintain low costs.


We reduce the cost of raw materials in two ways:
First, we buy direct from manufacturers and not through a second source, distributor or contract manufacturer.
Second, we buy in enormous quantities and leverage this volume in negotiating lower prices.

Of course owning the factory where we build our products allows us to cut out at least 30% of the margin demanded by contract manufacturers who are supplying some of our competitors.


Consider that we buy our A/D and D/A converters from Cirrus Logic; the same parts (CS5368 and CS4385) that you will find in a $200k console; we encourage anyone interested to look further into this. We have also been told that we are the single largest Cirrus Logic customer behind only Apple!

You will find similar examples with Analog Devices, makers of the SHARC DSPs that we use or Mabuchi, who make the motors for our motor-faders (and those of Penny & Giles, Alps, etc.) and the list goes on. We are buying the very best parts, from the very best manufacturers, direct and in huge quantities.

That means we pay the lowest possible prices.


Likewise we have two major ways in which we reduce the cost of labor to build our products. First, we own the factory and this means we are paying workers directly and not through a third party that is making a markup.

Again, this results in up to 30% savings. Second, we have invested in massive amount of automation to a far greater extent than many in China in order to reduce cost while increasing quality.


This past year for example we converted the placement of electrolytic capacitors and other through-hole components from hand-insertion to full automation.
Each of the machines that now place e-caps in rapid-fire succession cost over $500k US so the savings in cost will take some time to be realized.

But we have seen an immediate improvement in first-pass yield by eliminating the chance of human error, and that is both improving quality and reducing the cost of re-work.


We run our company with a very low overhead relative to some competitors, and we do this not by cutting corners but rather by working smarter.

First off we invest heavily in systems that improve productivity and reduce redundancy. For example our engineering management software Agile talks to our website content management system so when we enter a product’s specifications we do it once and it is automatically replicated across several departments and is immediately posted to the web. Or take our service manuals which are created automatically, in real-time and with the very latest schematics, parts lists and engineering changes - all available through an on-line portal.


Another way we reduce overhead is by re-investing profits in our company to purchase machinery, land and buildings. For example we have purchased new buildings in Manchester, UK and Las Vegas, USA in the past year. We have also purchased land and we are building a $50 million state-of-the-art campus to contain a new factory, research center, logistics hub and residential village in China. These investments not only give us greater control over quality and production but they also reduce our operating costs over the long term.

Finally it is important to know that we operate on what would be considered to be a slim margin by industry standards. While some manufacturers price their products according to what they think the market will accept, we do it very differently.

We calculate our costs and add a fair markup that will allow us to continue to grow our business and nothing more. Again, we have all seen strategies where manufacturers release new products at high prices only to reduce them as other competitors come into the market. We prefer to offer a fair price from the beginning and not play such games.


The reality of our company is that we are a highly efficient organization of 3,500 people including over 250 engineers and in-house manufacturing. We build up to 5 million products a year and consequently buy parts at the lowest possible cost.

Since I started the company 24 years ago, it has been our philosophy to pass on savings to the customer and this will always be our philosophy.
Offering excellent products at affordable prices has gained us millions of loyal customers who in return reward us by buying our products.

Yes, we are a very different kind of company, we want to be different and I am immensely proud of our team.

Warm regards

Uli
 
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Re: Why are BEHRINGER products so affordable?

There is a fifth element to product price, namely feature content.

JR

PS: You could just post links to your sundry promotional articles, and save some effort, while I suspect you are working smart with these too.
 
Re: Why are BEHRINGER products so affordable?

Alan, get one iNuke and do an A/B test with any of the amps you mentioned and all will be revealed to you. I own several Behr products and i had very little trouble with them, but none of it is an amplifier. Stated power is rather peak power then a real RMS.
 
Re: Why are BEHRINGER products so affordable?

Alan, get one iNuke and do an A/B test with any of the amps you mentioned and all will be revealed to you. I own several Behr products and i had very little trouble with them, but none of it is an amplifier. Stated power is rather peak power then a real RMS.

We have been debating amplifier continuous power capability for decades. I recall a serious discussion around the time Bink did his amplifier shoot out. The problem then and still, is that we do not have a well accepted useful way to characterized amplifier power output wrt time that applies for all applications. We do have a few bench tests that generally are too hard (continuous power 24x7), or too easy (transient peak power). Different genres of music will be more or less demanding in real world use.

Coincidentally loudspeaker power handling exhibits similar complexities so perhaps a consolidation of amp and loudspeaker test techniques might make some sense.

In the meanwhile we need to listen to real world user feedback concerning how well a given amp model performs in our preferred application.

JR

PS: It appears from a cluster of new light weight low cost power amps that technology has clicked forward one more tick. These new amps will generally be more efficient so run cooler and put more power they draw into the speakers. That said there can still be differences in execution with any new technology, while we are already several generations into the class D (saturated switch output stage) efficiency revolution. There is always room for more technology improvement in faster switching speed for smaller magnetics, higher voltage, higher current, and lower on-resistance power devices. Class D was a lot harder decades ago.
 
Re: Why are BEHRINGER products so affordable?

<snip>
Coincidentally loudspeaker power handling exhibits similar complexities so perhaps a consolidation of amp and loudspeaker test techniques might make some sense. <snip>

It is indeed fairly amazing that you can't buy a xxx watt amp and connect it to a xxx watt speaker and have something that is matched, (except maybe you can if you buy a Behringer 1000w speaker and connect it to a Behringer 1000w amp ;)~;-)~:wink: :razz: )
However, one would think that if they all gave us AES numbers for both types of products, it wouldn't be so bad even if it didn't represent "real" maximum capability.
 
Re: Why are BEHRINGER products so affordable?

Alan, get one iNuke and do an A/B test with any of the amps you mentioned and all will be revealed to you. I own several Behr products and i had very little trouble with them, but none of it is an amplifier. Stated power is rather peak power then a real RMS.

Indications of real RMS are out there for NU6000.
here: Behringer inuke NU6000 vs KAM KXD7200 bench tested - Speakerplans.com Forums - Page 1

"To summarise, for music signals, both channels driven, you can expect an output of:

Behringer:
1.37kW into 8 Ohms, 2.05kW into 4 Ohms for full-range or mid-top duty
1.16kW into 8 Ohms, 1.80kW into 4 Ohms for Bass duty"

and here:http://www.behringer.com/assets/NU1...U3000DSP_NU6000DSP_NU12000DSP_WebBrochure.pdf

"NU6000Output Power

Maximum Output Power Stereo
8 Ω per channel, stereo 1500 W
4 Ω per channel, stereo 3000 W
2 Ω per channel, stereo —
Bridged mono 8 Ω —
4 Ω —

RMS Stereo
8 Ω per channel, stereo 1100 W
4 Ω per channel, stereo 2200 W
2 Ω per channel, stereo —
Bridged mono 8 Ω —
4 Ω — "
 
Re: Why are BEHRINGER products so affordable?

Tested with 33% on time duty cycle.

AFAIK this is an arbitrary duty cycle used to facilitate making measurements without amp protection shutting down during tests.

I am still not aware of an appropriate duty cycle to use for testing. So only directly comparable to other amps tested at 33% but not necessarily representative of your actual application.

FWIW 33% is not crazy, but I would prefer a shaped noise test using some nominal crest factor as being more representative of actual music that doesn't pulse completely on and off like that tone burst test does.

Don't ask me what crest factor, but there has been some standards generated for speaker testing.

JR
 
Re: Why are BEHRINGER products so affordable?

Alan, get one iNuke and do an A/B test with any of the amps you mentioned and all will be revealed to you. I own several Behr products and i had very little trouble with them, but none of it is an amplifier. Stated power is rather peak power then a real RMS.

The, inuke 6000 does not have what I need. I'm looking for something in the 4500w bridged area into 4 ohms. Plus i really hate to say this, I may lose shows if I show up with a rack of Behringer products, I'd have to take the name off, along with the handles just so I can close the case, or hide the amp till it proves itself. Thats the disgust around here as far as behringer goes. I know a lot of people that bought a lot of Behringer gates, compressors, eq's, effects. All items were so noisy they had to come out of the rack. The eq with the lights on the fader, that could be used as a white noise machine to put you to sleep.

When the 12,000 comes out I'll see if I can demo one on my subs, I spend a lot of money at a local place that just might let me do it.