Bennett: Anything to say about the 21IPAL?

C

Chris Van Duker

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Oct 26, 2011
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Sacramento, CA
B&C has just added a fairly new and very interesting 21" woofer to their website here: B&C SPEAKERS, and Powersoft has some info up about their corresponding amp module here: IpalMod | amp-modules | products. The short version is that the processing in the amp module and a pressure sensor allow the driver to behave as though it has T/S characteristics which are different from the physical driver.

Should we assume that because these parts are listed on the respective websites, that they'll be available for sale to end-users? I can imagine some really interesting things I can do with them, but I can also see this being a support nightmare for both companies. How are these going to be available to the little people, if at all?

-Chris
 
Re: Bennett: Anything to say about the 21IPAL?

Chris Van Duker said:
B&C has just added a fairly new and very interesting 21" woofer to their website here: B&C SPEAKERS, and Powersoft has some info up about their corresponding amp module here: IpalMod | amp-modules | products. The short version is that the processing in the amp module and a pressure sensor allow the driver to behave as though it has T/S characteristics which are different from the physical driver.

Should we assume that because these parts are listed on the respective websites, that they'll be available for sale to end-users? I can imagine some really interesting things I can do with them, but I can also see this being a support nightmare for both companies. How are these going to be available to the little people, if at all?
Click to expand...

Hey Chris,

As you have maybe surmised, the 21IPAL is available only to large OEM customers. Not only does it need to be paired with Powersoft's amplifier for the real magic to happen, it is also rather pricy since the suspension uses some high end epoxies in order to stay together, and the neo magnet is significantly larger than even the one on our popular 21SW152. You're basically correct at the intended goal, some of our customers are doing some really interesting stuff with this woofer. The idea is to optimize for truck packing, so to allow the output of several drivers in large cabinets to be equalled with one extreme driver in one cabinet. The side benefit is that, being paired with a purpose designed amplifier, it is difficult to destroy.

Data sheet attached, I know we have a white paper on this technology that I will try and get and put up here. This is the technology that birthed our entire SW series of woofers, and now the TBW series in ceramic, which are about as good as it gets in terms of linearity.
 

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Re: Bennett: Anything to say about the 21IPAL?

I showed this to Ramsdell and asked if it was the same speaker he tested a while back - no it's a whole different creature. Amongst all the big words on the PowerSoft link I couldn't find anything that says it will do a 1 ohm load. They were obviously made for each other but what's up with the 1 ohm load?
 
Re: Bennett: Anything to say about the 21IPAL?

Silas Pradetto said:
They're happy with whatever they're designed for. It's not newfangled at all.
Click to expand...


Maybe not to you but that thing looks pretty newfangled to me. DSP - lite as a feather - space aged speaker sensor probe thingy - cost is out there in space too. I wish the PowerSoft website would post the 1 ohm load spec for simple minded people like me - that's the one item they left out. And on that note - does this mean that all the new amps will all start going towards that 1 ohm load thing?
 
Re: Bennett: Anything to say about the 21IPAL?

Well, there are some serious disadvantages to a 1 ohm load if the amp isn't located very close to the speaker, and there's also quite a bit more current going through the connectors -- I think it would really only work for a powered cabinet. As for the specs they've posted, you can read between the lines a bit. They rate the amp at 8500 watts output, and with a 1 ohm load, you can simply take the square root to get the voltage and amperage (assuming it's resistive, which of course it isn't), to get 92 volts and 92 amps. They spec the amp as being able to swing quite a bit more voltage and current, so it looks like the amp is pretty well suited to running the driver.

Bennett, thanks for the extra info. I was having some thoughts about putting together a Kickstarter campaign to build a couple different projects with the driver, and get the quantity up to whatever the minimum order is, but it sounds like even that wouldn't be quite a big enough deal to be worthwhile to B&C and Powersoft. I imagine that they also wouldn't want to risk damaging the reputation of the gear with a poor implementation.
 
Re: Bennett: Anything to say about the 21IPAL?

Chris,

If you can get the amps from Powersoft, and if there are certain assurances about the level of support we'd have to offer, it's not impossible. However, the price of the package may make it prohibitive to the casual DIYer. For your information, the IPAL 21 costs about twice as much as our publicly available 21SW152. I have no idea what Powersoft's amp to drive the thing costs, or what it takes to design the proper box and program the amp with the proper settings. If you think there's really enough interest there I'll do whatever I can.
 
Re: Bennett: Anything to say about the 21IPAL?

It looks like to me, from the datasheet you posted, this speaker is not 1Ohm when operated as a Sub from 20-60Hz. And when its heated it will be even greater impedance. If the former material is right the large aluminum wire would allow for a safe doubling of the impedance probably without destroying the speaker. These would be very useful properties when designed into the proper product.
 
Re: Bennett: Anything to say about the 21IPAL?

It looks like despite the very low RE the extremely high BL^2/RE of this driver which will result in a big back EMF, a very large impedance hump near resonance and a very wide base of higher impedance so that the actual working impedance should be more manageable than you would think. Efficiency is very high. Depending on your enclosure used it should shift the bulk of the impedance upwards in frequency quite a bit too. Judging from the already extremely good thermal power handling on my 21sw152-4's this driver's long term thermal management capabilities should be truly epic indeed. It has 60% more vc mass.



Bennett I sent you a pm with a few questions about these woofers. :)~:)~:smile:
 
Re: Bennett: Anything to say about the 21IPAL?

Josh Ricci said:
It looks like despite the very low RE the extremely high BL^2/RE of this driver which will result in a big back EMF, a very large impedance hump near resonance and a very wide base of higher impedance so that the actual working impedance should be more manageable than you would think. Efficiency is very high. Depending on your enclosure used it should shift the bulk of the impedance upwards in frequency quite a bit too. Judging from the already extremely good thermal power handling on my 21sw152-4's this driver's long term thermal management capabilities should be truly epic indeed. It has 60% more vc mass.



Bennett I sent you a pm with a few questions about these woofers. :)~:)~:smile:
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Hi Josh,
Nice to see you on this forum. I am a fan of your Gjallerhorn project. Keep up the good work!
-Eric
 
I just asked Bennett a few questions on this last week, great to see a thread.

The Powersoft module is listed on our price list, it's not cheap. Even if someone paid for the materials, there is a good deal of knowledge needed. In the end, it looks like a great experiment for someone not worried about ROI, that has extensive experience in sub drivers and design.

Looks like the Martin sub uses this tech, it's the only one I've seen. It's not cheap either, but less than expected.

Caleb
 
Re: Bennett: Anything to say about the 21IPAL?

It does make me wonder what Danley would do with this... I would imagine it's a good start for a horn project to be able to start out with whatever driver parameters you want.
 
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