Clever way to interconnect networked devices?

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kristianjohnsen

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Mar 13, 2011
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Lillehammer, Norway
www.partyfabrikken.no
I have ever heard mention of this in a pro audio setting before, so here goes:

I was browsing at a consumer electronics store and saw network routers made specifically to use the power cables in a house to interconnect devices in the house on one network.

First of all, it left me with the question: How does a system like that make sure it can include every room, but not the adjacent neighbors?

Secondly: Most of us that design and use our own live sound systems take great care in having a well-thought-out power scheme with solid cabling, no "loops", a many direct paths as possible, etc.

Are we perfect candidates for networking our gear with such a system?



PS: Now, that's one hefty 60+ Hz HPF :D
 
Re: Clever way to interconnect networked devices?

kristianjohnsen said:
I have ever heard mention of this in a pro audio setting before, so here goes:

I was browsing at a consumer electronics store and saw network routers made specifically to use the power cables in a house to interconnect devices in the house on one network.

First of all, it left me with the question: How does a system like that make sure it can include every room, but not the adjacent neighbors?

Secondly: Most of us that design and use our own live sound systems take great care in having a well-thought-out power scheme with solid cabling, no "loops", a many direct paths as possible, etc.

Are we perfect candidates for networking our gear with such a system?



PS: Now, that's one hefty 60+ Hz HPF :D
Click to expand...

Most of the IP over powerline systems are pretty (RF) noisy, and don't pass through transformers all that well. Plus, performance depends on the types of wiring in use, and it is possible to get coupling between adjacent cables (often undesirable). Not to mention the additional latency and bandwidth restrictions these sorts of systems impose. Me, I'd just run the additional Cat 6 (or coax, or fiber) link.
 
Re: Clever way to interconnect networked devices?

It is actually a pretty old idea to send information over power lines. One old consumer product used the technology to drive remote hifi speakers. The problem with the technology for more professional applications is sometimes there is interference on those mains circuits.

Fast forward a few decades and we now have superior technology to do this with, while we still have to deal with mains wiring issues.

One new issue, is that utilities are increasingly using data over distribution to read meters automatically and handle time of day load shuffling. So utility signaling could interfere with other mains wiring traffic.

I still see this as possibly viable for short run sends to powered speakers that will always need a line cord. It may be a tradeoff between simple RF and RF over the mains lead, and there are pros and cons about both. A long power cord can be smaller gauge that a long speaker wire at modest power levels.

My crystal ball still tells me a RF network with enough bandwidth for data and control. As usual it doesn't tell me when. :-(

JR
 
Re: Clever way to interconnect networked devices?

Rob Timmerman said:
Most of the IP over powerline systems are pretty (RF) noisy, and don't pass through transformers all that well.
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Are you aware of any that do? I need to pass audio from one railroad car to another. The train runs high voltage, and each car has a step-down xformer. Stringing wire between the cars is not an option, and rf doesn't get there. Don't care about latency at all. I tried one of the $30 sets you see online. Works fine in the house but, as you say, not through the xformers.
 
Re: Clever way to interconnect networked devices?

Dan Richardson said:
Are you aware of any that do? I need to pass audio from one railroad car to another. The train runs high voltage, and each car has a step-down xformer. Stringing wire between the cars is not an option, and rf doesn't get there. Don't care about latency at all. I tried one of the $30 sets you see online. Works fine in the house but, as you say, not through the xformers.
Click to expand...

Every powerline communications approach I've seen was significantly attentuated by transformers, although there are some that have boxes available to pass signal around transformers.
 
Re: Clever way to interconnect networked devices?

We run power line Ethernet systems for system control in our smaller gigs. Thus far they have been very reliable except with extremely long power runs. They're far more reliable than wireless networking (both 2.4 and 5ghz). Latency is between 1 and 5ms and modern devices have plenty of bandwidth. I also haven't noticed any performance issues with rf gear but in the uk we are limited to ch38 and ch70 so YMMV.
 
Re: Clever way to interconnect networked devices?

John Roberts said:
One new issue, is that utilities are increasingly using data over distribution to read meters automatically and handle time of day load shuffling. So utility signaling could interfere with other mains wiring traffic.

JR
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If one is one of those people who intends on using a UPS for the audio console, anyways: How about a UPS placed close to stage somewhere, that powers one network router as well as the power line going to FOH, which will power the console sitting at FOH along with the other network router? The UPS should be able to fend off incoming control data as turning power into DC should pretty much wipe out signals coming in with the power?
 
Re: Clever way to interconnect networked devices?

Nick Boulton said:
We run power line Ethernet systems for system control in our smaller gigs. Thus far they have been very reliable except with extremely long power runs. They're far more reliable than wireless networking (both 2.4 and 5ghz). Latency is between 1 and 5ms and modern devices have plenty of bandwidth. I also haven't noticed any performance issues with rf gear but in the uk we are limited to ch38 and ch70 so YMMV.
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Could you elaborate a little more? How many routers are you using? What kind of devices are you controlling? How long is an extremely long power run?
 
Re: Clever way to interconnect networked devices?

kristianjohnsen said:
Could you elaborate a little more? How many routers are you using? What kind of devices are you controlling? How long is an extremely long power run?
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We're using between 2 and 6 powerline bridges on a network, sometimes with a standard unmanaged switch and a wireless access point (either an apple airport (express or extreme), an ageing Cisco aironet or a ubiquiti ap). We tend not to run dhcp servers on networks (simply out of laziness). Devices on the network have included Dolby lake processors, shure and sennheiser wireless gear, but mostly are l'acoustics LA8 and LA4 amplifiers.

We have only ever sent control data over the network, no experimentation with dante so far!

The only issues we have come across are when using 5 or 6 devices with a power system with multiple runs of 100m or more. In which case we began to experience packet loss and went back to using cat5e
 
Re: Clever way to interconnect networked devices?

Nick Boulton said:
We're using between 2 and 6 powerline bridges on a network, sometimes with a standard unmanaged switch and a wireless access point (either an apple airport (express or extreme), an ageing Cisco aironet or a ubiquiti ap). We tend not to run dhcp servers on networks (simply out of laziness). Devices on the network have included Dolby lake processors, shure and sennheiser wireless gear, but mostly are l'acoustics LA8 and LA4 amplifiers.

We have only ever sent control data over the network, no experimentation with dante so far!

The only issues we have come across are when using 5 or 6 devices with a power system with multiple runs of 100m or more. In which case we began to experience packet loss and went back to using cat5e
Click to expand...

This is very helpful, thank you, Nick!:)
 
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