Did I purchase the wrong UPS?

Rafi Singer

Rafi Singer

Freshman
May 17, 2011
62
0
6
Waltham, MA
www.singerproduction.com
Hey all,

I just picked up a Cyberpower OR1000LCDRM1U for use with my M32R. As I was checking it over, I saw a warning label that the output of the UPS that stated that the output of the device is not sinusoidal and has a THD of 41%, as well as a maximum single harmonic of 52.2%. It also states for computer loads only.

Could someone help me make sense of this? Is this UPS inappropriate for my intended use?
 
Re: Did I purchase the wrong UPS?

Hello

Computers use switching PSU:s almost 100% - pretty safe bet is 99,99% - X32 and presumably M32 use switching PSU also - so I think you are good as long the unit is fast enough - that is easily checked by pulling AC-cord out few times and observing.

I think that warning might be in place with motor-loads or perhaps some sensitive audio gear or ....


Just try it - set mixer up - interrupt power - if mixer stays on, you have bought right piece.

Let us know.


Merry solstice.
 
Re: Did I purchase the wrong UPS?

Rafi Singer said:
Hey all,

I just picked up a Cyberpower OR1000LCDRM1U for use with my M32R. As I was checking it over, I saw a warning label that the output of the UPS that stated that the output of the device is not sinusoidal and has a THD of 41%, as well as a maximum single harmonic of 52.2%. It also states for computer loads only.

Could someone help me make sense of this? Is this UPS inappropriate for my intended use?
Click to expand...

If it isn't an "in-line" UPS, there will be a time lag between line power and battery power which can cause digital devices to re-boot at best and lock up at the worst. Given the limited info and the cheap price as well as the horrible THD specs it is NOT for audio system use.

Look at Tripplite for fully usable, reliable USP's. They're not cheap new, but plenty are available used when server farms re-gear. Usually a new baatery is all that is needed and these are commonly available for less than $100 shipped.

To answer your question directly, yes, you bought the wrong unit. It's a toy and you need a tool.
 
Re: Did I purchase the wrong UPS?

Many years ago I brought a cheap ups for a festival gig when I was contracted to shoot video for the shows. Due to the way festival power is (mis)handled at times my ups would cut in and out (draining the battery) but also give out a terrible a terrible noise at random times into the soundcompany gear.

It wasn't obvious at first that it was my fault since I was only connected to the output of the main mixer using pro stuff and the ups was only servicing my gear. Disconnecting the recording snake from the mixer didn't help so it couldn't have been my fault either, we thought, so it must come from the stage equipment. Disconnecting each and every cable to find this problem was a pain! We found the problem before the festival started.

I can tell you that no one at that festival liked to hear that really loud noise in the FoH! If feather and tar had been at that place I'd probably been covered in it.....

This ups didn't show this problem before with other gear, but after this gig I got a professional inline ups instead for obvious reasons.
 
Re: Did I purchase the wrong UPS?

Hey Robert, were you saying then that you were multitracking the audio for the show from some sort of split snake then? Can you remember if it was it a cheater or transormer split, and what recording console or device you used that caused the issues that were related to the random noise bursts injected into the FoH snake from the ups?

just curious...

Robert Lofgren said:
Many years ago I brought a cheap ups for a festival gig when I was contracted to shoot video for the shows. Due to the way festival power is (mis)handled at times my ups would cut in and out (draining the battery) but also give out a terrible a terrible noise at random times into the soundcompany gear.

It wasn't obvious at first that it was my fault since I was only connected to the output of the main mixer using pro stuff and the ups was only servicing my gear. Disconnecting the recording snake from the mixer didn't help so it couldn't have been my fault either, we thought, so it must come from the stage equipment. Disconnecting each and every cable to find this problem was a pain! We found the problem before the festival started.

I can tell you that no one at that festival liked to hear that really loud noise in the FoH! If feather and tar had been at that place I'd probably been covered in it.....

This ups didn't show this problem before with other gear, but after this gig I got a professional inline ups instead for obvious reasons.
Click to expand...
 
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Re: Did I purchase the wrong UPS?

Robert Lofgren said:
Many years ago I brought a cheap ups for a festival gig when I was contracted to shoot video for the shows. Due to the way festival power is (mis)handled at times my ups would cut in and out (draining the battery) but also give out a terrible a terrible noise at random times into the soundcompany gear.
Click to expand...

I've had the office-style APC UPSs do odd things when on generators. I switched to the Furman UPSs that combine voltage regulation with the UPS and all of those problems went away.
 
Re: Did I purchase the wrong UPS?

Declan Slater said:
Hey Robert, were you saying then that you were multitracking the audio for the show from some sort of split snake then? Can you remember if it was it a cheater or transormer split, and what recording console or device you used that caused the issues that were related to the random noise bursts injected into the FoH snake from the ups?

just curious...
Click to expand...
Too long time has passed since then so I don't remember details anymore...

But, the interference didn't travel in the snake or it was multipath so we never knew how it actually happened. Testing the ups off-site the next day it was running perfect as ever before. Perhaps there was some wireless or some unshielded cable that picked up the noise.

The random burst were due to the ups kicking in and went away when it was not providing battery power. Most cheap ups'es will have trouble with power from generators, thus draining the battery. This place was fixed power but catering and all kind of power hungry devices was online. I lost power twice that evening and I was very afraid since my video recorder was using tape and a power loss could easily create tape sallad...
 
Re: Did I purchase the wrong UPS?

Rafi, I use a similar TrippLite 500V/300W desktop (brick) model for my X32 compact and router. It's also simulated sine wave but I never expect to actually have to run on the battery for anything more than walking over to shut things down. I do expect it to carry me through a momentary blip and it does claim to provide some degree of voltage regulation but I assume the engineers here would chuckle at that claim. Would a $270 true sine wave inline model be better? Probably so but I'm just a hobbyist -- with crossed fingers I guess. Not sure how it would work with a gennie either.

...dave
 
Re: Did I purchase the wrong UPS?

Ugh - there is nothing wrong with Cyber Power UPSs. I have many of them and they perform as well as the other brands. And I find them far superior to APC who has been coasting on their reputation while cheapening their designs for years now. APC used to be worth it, now I think you are worse off.

Long and short, brands aside, you bought the wrong kind of UPS. There are two kinds of UPSs - during a power outage there are those that switch to batteries and those that don't because you are always running off of battery 100% of the time.

Switching, especially with a digital mixing console, is definitely undesired.

To identify UPSs that don't switch but provide steady power all the time look for models that have two inverters. One to charge the batteries another to take power from the batteries and provide output to the equipment.

Two inverters means no switching. Manufactures will use phrases like double conversion, online, etc. They cost more since they have two inverters, which is one of the main reasons why the switching style UPSs are pushed.

I have several of these: http://www.cyberpowersystems.com/products/ups-systems/smart-app-ups/paragon-series/ol1000rtxl2u.html

I love them. They have been rock steady for years during lightning storms, brown outs, etc. and for the money they can't be beat. Rack mountable too (and they come with all necessary mounting hardware in the box).

Bottom line - if the UPS manufacturer is talking about a switching time of ANY amount skip that model and keep looking.
 
Re: Did I purchase the wrong UPS?

Interestingly, in Europe/UK and other places with a 220-240V mains supply, the hold-up time of the X32 PSU seems plenty long enough for a basic offline UPS to switch over without a glitch - I've tried it many times to see if there was a problem and I've never had a single glitch, let alone a reboot.
 
Re: Did I purchase the wrong UPS?

that should be because 220v has to drop down WAY far to hit the "less than 90v for over 20ms" mark, compared to 120v... this is covered very well, way far back on the X32 forum here. It's such a far swing, that the UPS is almost not needed over there... unless someone kicks a cord.

Actually, if the ups can reliably switch over in under 6ms, there will not be any problem. If there is no spec stated, that's a good sign you should skip that one. I own and sell them on every system/install. The biggest problem I ever have is reliably keeping track of the batteries, to be replaced every couple years, before they fail.

Dave Korman said:
Interestingly, in Europe/UK and other places with a 220-240V mains supply, the hold-up time of the X32 PSU seems plenty long enough for a basic offline UPS to switch over without a glitch - I've tried it many times to see if there was a problem and I've never had a single glitch, let alone a reboot.
Click to expand...
 
Re: Did I purchase the wrong UPS?

that should be because 220v has to drop down WAY far to hit the "less than 90v for over 20ms" mark, compared to 120v..
Click to expand...

Yes, I knew the reason even before the earlier discussion (I'm an EE).

Security companies must have a similar problem keeping track of alarm system batteries that also need regular replacement. I'd have thought that there was some commercial software available for tracking this sort of scheduled maintenance requirement.
 
Re: Did I purchase the wrong UPS?

Based on advice in the X32 discussion thread and elsewhere on the internet, I use two Eaton 3S's with my X32 and S16's.
The 3S is small enough to fit in the S16 rack case and the mixer dogbox and fast enough to respond to a power cable being pulled without interrupting anything.

HTH.

Karl.
 
Re: Did I purchase the wrong UPS?

So a follow up on some recent developments: I recently got a X32 Rack and installed it in a shallow 6U SKB case leaving 3U available for other uses. I had hoped to "engineer" a way to mount my 9 pound 300w TrippLite desktop-style UPS in that space but suffice it to say there is not enough clearance to make it work so I just bit the bullet and purchased the lightest 1U UPS I could find -- an 18 pound 300w CyberPower unit. Works and looks nice but that 18 pounds raised the total weight of the entire case from 30 to 48 pounds -- ugh! I'm torn as to whether the added weight is worth it. With good handles on the SKB it is easy enough to carry and the weight does make the case more stable when making connections but gee, it sure was easier to transport before.

So it got me thinking, what do I really need? Certainly basic surge protection but past that do I really need something that will keep the mixer running for six minutes while in all likelihood the rest of the system is down as well? Probably not. What I think I really need (disclosure: I'm just a hobbyist) is just enough standby power to get me through a momentary (1-5 second?) outage -- OK maybe 60 seconds to reconnect the kicked-out plug? Bottom line? Could/would there be a market for a lighter less capable unit to meet such a need?

Oh get over it Dave, just pick the damn thing up with both hands and quit whining <wink>!

...dave
 
Re: Did I purchase the wrong UPS?

Dave, as Karl Barns pointed out, the Eaton 3S fits in relatively small places, it's fairly light and it doesn't cost a lot. I've used it for nearly three years without an issue. A 1U unit of low weight would be great, alas.....no such thing to be found.
 
Re: Did I purchase the wrong UPS?

Hi Dave,

For three or four years I have been using the 4# Tripplite InternetOffice300 for a small mixer, DSP and router and it has worked fine.

The one issue I have found is some generators.
It will go in to protect and battery backup if there are large voltage swings, and beep.
This also drains the battery, though I haven't ever had it die.
This is where a double-conversion unit shines.

One more note.
I do a lot of house gigs and the UPS can sit for a month or more.
With any UPS, charge it at least monthly, or even every couple of weeks to maintain battery health.
This is true with most UPS units, though the ones with smaller batteries are probably faster to fail.

Thanks and good health, Weogo
 
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